Daniel 11: James Malm vs. Bob Thiel

“Orthodox” 16th Century Representation of the “Apocalypse”

James Malm, an “independent” who has a speculative and often partially inaccurate blog, posted an item titled Bob Thiel [LCG] on the events leading into the Tribulation #7.

Some of what he posted from emails from me and about me perhaps should be dealt with. The quotes preceded with names came from his post, whereas my comments on them today will be shown below them.

Bob Thiel: I believe that there may be a regional war that could precede a peace deal (though even if this regional war may not absolutely be biblically-required, Isaiah 17:1 seems to provide support for this belief) consistent with Daniel 9:27.

James Malm: I have been warning of this regional war for over four years and warning that it will reset the conditions towards a genuine dialogue for peace. In doing so I have stood alone and I have not seen any other COG Groups doing this warning work and preparing God’s people and the world for these events.

There will be a war and then a peace deal, however Is 17:1 does not speak of Damascus being destroyed before the tribulation; it speaks of Damascus being destroyed by the hordes of the east who come down after being attacked by Europe. If you read Is 17 you will see that this happens at a time when Israel is also suffering and that God will deliver both Israel and Damascus…

Let me also say that Dan 11:27 was fulfilled eons ago and has nothing to do with the end times. Herbert Armstrong accurately stated that this referred to a point just before the Antiochus Epiphanes desecration and the days of the Maccabees verses 29-32.

There are three main points to address here.

The first is that I would suggest that overall LCG and I have done a substantially better job of doing a warning work the past four years if internet statistics, church attendance, personal lectures (TWSPs), printed literature, or television responses count. As far as the particular aspect that James Malm claims he has “stood alone,” that there might be a regional war in the Middle East, LCG and I have included that in some of our statements going back for quite some time (notice, for one example, a world news item related to Damascus in the update from Dr. Winnail dated 06/05/2008).

For the second point, as far as Damascus and Isaiah 17, notice what it actually states:

17 The burden against Damascus.

“Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city,
And it will be a ruinous heap.
2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken;
They will be for flocks
Which lie down, and no one will make them afraid.
3 The fortress also will cease from Ephraim,
The kingdom from Damascus,
And the remnant of Syria;
They will be as the glory of the children of Israel,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

4 “In that day it shall come to pass
That the glory of Jacob will wane,
And the fatness of his flesh grow lean. (Isaiah 17:1-4)

The above supports the idea that Damascus is destroyed just before Ephraim (mainly the United Kingdom and some related primarily Anglo-descended nations) loses military power. While this may not absolutely have to happen prior to the start of the Great Tribulation, since that is the “time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7) and Ephraim had Jacob’s name placed upon him (Genesis 48:14-16), happening prior seems plausible. And yes, it is true that God will ultimately deliver Israel, but not until after the tribulation.

The third point by James Malm shows a willingness to overlook what the Hebrew states. Daniel 11:27 has a future fulfillment. While it is possible, and even likely, that verses 21-26 of Daniel 11 (and verse 20 may start the final fulfillment and verse 24 shows that this leader will after first seem to be promoting peace; see Can the Great Tribulation Begin in 2012, 2013, or 2014?) may show and/or parallel later portions of that chapter, it is clear that the future and final King of the North is the king mentioned who will come to his end at the “appointed time.” This “appointed time” (Strong’s word #4150) is first mentioned in Daniel 11:27 which suggest it is in the future and as well in vss. 29 and 35 which appear to be referring to the specific time related to the end.

In addition to this being my position, the idea that Daniel 11 had future fulfillment from verse 27 or earlier was the position of certain ones that professed Christ in the second, third, and fourth centuries. Additionally, even though he felt that there was a type of fulfillment with Antiochus Epiphanes, the late Herbert W. Armstrong believed that much of Daniel 11 had future fulfillment. Notice:

In Daniel 11:21, referring in original, typical fulfillment to Antiochus Epiphanes, there shall stand up a vile person…So once again before the second coming of Christ, a vile leader will stop the daily sacrifices being offered…This same prophecy spoken by Jesus is also reported by Luke…21:20-24 (Armstrong HW. Personal, Plain Truth magazine, June 1967).

The indication is the armies of the “beast” of Revelation 17, entering Jerusalem (Dan 11:41, Zech. 14:2), will stop this “daily sacrifice”…And the abomination that maketh desolate set up.” What is this abomination? This refers to Daniel 11:31 and Matthew 24:15. (Armstrong, Herbert W. The Time We Are In, Now. Pastor General’s Report-Vol 1, No. 15, November 20, 1979, Page 2).

Thus, James Malm’s reference to HWA was incomplete and in my view, inaccurate because it not accurately reflect HW’s view.

James Malm also posted:

Bob Thiel: 3 1/2 years after this deal is confirmed, certain sacrifices will be stopped (precisely when they start is not completely biblically-certain).

James Malm: Bob tells me that a peace deal will be made and confirmed and then 3 1/2 years will follow, within which, at an unknown time, a physical daily sacrifice will begin. Then at the 3 1/2 year point after the confirmation of the peace deal, the abomination will be set up on the Holy place to stop the sacrifices and trigger the tribulation.

1) Of course this is contrary to scripture because Paul tells us that,

1 Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

While James quoted me correctly, he misapplies Paul’s statement here.

Does Paul’s statement mean that there will not be a peace deal in place for 3 1/2 years prior to the start of the Great Tribulation?

Not necessarily.

Why?

There are at least two reasons.

The first is that there are multiple times in the Bible where it shows that people will declare times of peace. And not all of them have the sudden destruction element to them. For example, in my book 2012 and the Rise of the Secret Sect I mention at least three of them. And I wrote (see page 246 2012 and the Rise of the Secret Sect) that it appears that the declaration of peace related to the visions of certain false prophets as well as the peace deal in Daniel 9:26b-27 is the following:

10 “Because, indeed, because they have seduced My people, saying, ‘Peace!’ when there is no peace — and one builds a wall, and they plaster it with untempered mortar — 11 say to those who plaster it with untempered mortar, that it will fall. There will be flooding rain, and you, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall tear it down. 12 Surely, when the wall has fallen, will it not be said to you, ‘Where is the mortar with which you plastered it?'”

13 Therefore thus says the Lord God: “I will cause a stormy wind to break forth in My fury; and there shall be a flooding rain in My anger, and great hailstones in fury to consume it. 14 So I will break down the wall you have plastered with untempered mortar, and bring it down to the ground, so that its foundation will be uncovered; it will fall, and you shall be consumed in the midst of it. Then you shall know that I am the Lord. (Ezekiel 13:10-14, NKJV)

The second reason is that the sudden destruction that the Apostle Paul warned about in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 seems to be tied to the events of Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 9:27. Notice that Jesus tied a suddenness to the events that Daniel was referring to:

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:15-21)

Consider that Daniel was inspired to write that a seven year deal was made, that in the middle of the deal it would be broken, and that this break happens when the abomination is set up. The elements of something happening in the middle of the seven year deal (which is 3 1/2 years after the deal), combined with Jesus’ warnings in Matthew 24, suggest it is then that the suddenness is a factor. And when you consider that the King of the North destroys after a “league” (probable peace deal) is made, this supports the idea that there would be a gap between the peace deal of Daniel 9:27/11:23 and the destruction that comes later (Daniel 11:31-39; Matthew 24:15-22).

Thus, if we look at all the scriptures, we see that there will be a peace deal that will precede the establishment of the abomination of desolation being set up and that once that abomination is set up there will be a new urgency as that is when the Great Tribulation will be ready to commence. As I have written in both my 2012 and the Rise of the Secret Sect book as well as my article about the King of the North, the King of the North will pretend to be promoting peace even though he will be a military leader according to Bible prophecy (Daniel 11:24; 29-43; Revelation 13:3-4).

The prophesied peace is to proceed sudden destruction for about 3 1/2 years. And when the faithful proclaim this is what is happening, many will not like to hear that (see Who is the King of the North?).

So, the sequence is that sometime after the peace deal is confirmed (Daniel 9:27), sacrifices begin (cf. Daniel 9:27), the gospel will have been preached enough to the world as a witness for the end to come (Matthew 24:14), Jewish sacrifices will be stopped (Daniel 9:27), the abomination of desolation will then be set up because of the King of the North (Daniel 9:27; 11:31), a decree is issued (Zechariah 2:1), then the most faithful Philadelphians will flee per Jesus’ statements in Matthew 24:15-19 (see There is a Place of Safety for the Philadelphians. Why it May Be Petra), and the Great Tribulation will begin (Matthew 24:21; Daniel 12:1b). This should be about 3 1/2 years after the peace deal is confirmed, and right after the King of the North tries to proclaim peace and safety (1 Thessalonians 5:3) to throw people off (cf. Daniel 11:24) for his invasion plans.

James Malm also posted:

Bob Thiel: A daily sacrifice will be started at some point in time and stopped with the fulfillment of Daniel 11:31. The fulfillment of Daniel 11:31 was also told by Jesus (Matthew 24:15). Jesus indicated that this would signal a time to flee (Matthew 24:16-20) prior to the start of the Great Tribulation.

James Malm: Dan 11:31 refers to Antiochus Epiphanes and not to the end time. That was a physical daily before Christ; After Christ the daily has become a spiritual application of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

As I wrote before, because Daniel 11 specifically refers to the appointed time of the end, there is a future fulfillment of Daniel 11:31. Furthermore, since “Christ was offered once” (Hebrews 9:28) and not daily as James Malm states or more often as Roman Catholics indicate, the passage about the daily sacrifice is not referring to Jesus.

While some modern Catholic and Protestant scholars do not accept that there is a future fulfillment of Daniel 11:31, historically those who professed Christ had a different view (for some details see the article Who is the King of the North?).

James Malm also posted:

Bob Thiel: The fulfillment of Daniel 11:31 was also told by Jesus (Matthew 24:15)

James Malm: That is a complete misunderstanding and misstatement.

My position on Daniel 11:31 is consistent with the scriptures, early writers, and Herbert Armstrong. James also posted:

Bob Thiel: Basically, Daniel 11:27 shows that the KON and KOS make a deceptive deal with each other.

James Malm: This is an utterly false assumption, as Dan 11:27 has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the end times; it took place before Antiochus Epiphanes and was so understood even by HWA.

KON=King of the North; KOS= King of the South.

Perhaps the best way to deal with this is to again state that HWA felt that there was a future fulfillment of Daniel 11, and he went as early as verse 21, as well as to quote Daniel 11:27 which refers to a deal involving these kings:

27 Both these kings’ hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time. (Daniel 11:27)

There clearly is a deceptive deal between the kings of the North and South and notice that it is related to the appointed time of the end, something that has not yet happened.

James also posted:

Bob Thiel: This may possibly be related to the Psalm 83 deal.

After the USA is defeated (Daniel 11:39), the KOS will decide to push at the KON.

James Malm: Dan 11:39 has absolutely nothing to do with the US being defeated; this is an attempt to force an opinion on the scriptures… the tribulation is coming and Christ is coming at the appointed times; whether YOU are finished or not!

Notice what Daniel 11:39 says:

39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain. (Daniel 11:39)

The “he” above is the King of the North as even James Malm would admit. The strongest fortresses on the planet currently are held by the USA and to a much lessor extent, its Anglo-allies. I have “forced” nothing here, only simply interpreted scripture in the light of current world events. The “appointed time” is mentioned in verses 29 and 35 of Daniel 11, as well as the verses past those–and Daniel 11 makes it clear that many events occur just before and during the appointed time, hence many verses in Daniel 11 have future fulfillment.

James also posted:

Bob Thiel: Setting up the abomination in Judea is the fulfillment of Daniel 11:31 when the sacrifices are stopped…

The apparent peace deal will come 3 1/2 years before that (Daniel 9:27).

James Malm: Again nonsense, the first half of the week of Dan 9:27 has already been fulfilled. It is the New Covenant of espousal to the saints that was confirmed by the flight and caring for the espoused bride by Christ; which will continue to be confirmed for the second half of the week in the latter days. Rev 12.

What I wrote is consistent with what the Bible says–it is not nonsense.

James also posted:

Bob Thiel: And yes, Daniel 11:31 is a signal that the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21) is about to begin per Jesus’ words Matthew 24:15.

James Malm: Again Dan 11:31 was fulfilled by Antiochus; Jesus said that an abomination spoken of by Daniel [Dan 12]would stand on the Holy place. That will start the tribulation.

Bob Thiel: The fulfillment of Matthew 24:14 comes just prior to this, though I believe it helps trigger this.

James Malm: Mat 24:14 will NOT be fulfilled until the third angel completes his mission immediately before the coming of Christ with all the saints.

The sequence in Matthew 24 has verse 14 coming before verse 21:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:14)

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)

Thus, James Malm apparently does not agree with the order that Jesus gave.

James somewhat paraphrased me and commented as follows:

Bob LCG says 3) The kings of the North and South shall be allied for a time in the end times. God says NO SUCH THING. The scripture says the KON will destroy the KOS and says NOTHING about any end time alliance.

But both Daniel 11:27 (which I quoted earlier) and Psalm 83 (which was alluded to earlier) do tell of such an alliance.

James also somewhat paraphrased me and commented as follows:

Bob LCG says 5) That the King of the South shall be an Islamic alliance. God says that the King of the South is the Ptolemaic Empire which was Egypt allied with Judah, Israel and Ethiopia, also controlling Cyrenaica [Eastern Libya].

We in LCG, as well as HWA’s old WCG, believe that a pan-Islamic state will be led by the King of the South:

But who is the “king of the south”?…in verse 40 we skip to “the time of the end”…The verse undoubtedly found partial fulfillment in the offensive of 1896…But Mussolini did not finish the prophecy…Just as there is yet to be a final “king of the north”…there may very well emerge in the same manner a final “king of the south”–an overall leader of an Arab-Moslem confederation, possibly bearing the very title Mahdi…a prophetic psalm (Psalm 83) provides additional insight into the Mideast picture. Germany (Assyria in Bible prophecy) and perhaps the rest of Europe will be in league in the future with a union of Arab nations…But in the end, this European-Arab alliance will prove short-lived…And the king of the north shall come against him [the king of the south]…Daniel 11:40-41…The Arab-Moslem Confederation will, of course, be thrown into chaotic disarray in the fact of invasion. (Stump K. The Arab World in Prophecy. Plain Truth, December 1979, pp. 11-12).

The yearnings across much of the Middle East for a new Saladin—one who will restore Arab glory by conquering the Jews and expelling Western influence—were foreseen by Bible prophecy. In Daniel 11:40, we read of a future “King of the South” who will ultimately “push at” a coming European superpower at the time of the end. This individual, called in Bible prophecy the King of the South because his center of power is south of Jerusalem, will undoubtedly be a charismatic person who will whip up much of the Muslim Middle East into a frenzy against Israel and Europe. (Ogwyn J. Conflict Over the “City of Peace”. Tomorrow’s World magazine, March-April 2002).

James also indicated that paraphrased me and commented as follows:

Bob LCG says 6] That the entire seventieth week of the Seventy Week Prophecy still remains to be fulfilled.

That is not precisely my (or LCG’s) position, nor do I recall writing anything specific about what does or does not fulfill the “Seventy Week Prophecy.” I have some opinions on this matter, but have not intentionally posted them–but may in the future.

Those interested in the truth about what I and LCG teach should compare what we teach with the Bible and rely on what we actually have written.

James Malm has adopted certain positions discounting the future fulfillment of Daniel 11 that I believe will confuse and mislead his followers. They really should search the scriptures, because if they truly understand them, they will realize that James Malm misunderstands much about Daniel 11 and end time prophecy.

Some articles of related interest may include the following:

Who is the King of the North? Is there one? Do biblical and Roman Catholic prophecies for the Great Monarch point to the same leader? Should he be followed? Who will be the King of the North discussed in Daniel 11? Is a nuclear attack prophesied to happen to the English-speaking peoples of the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand? When do the 1335 days, 1290 days, and 1260 days (the time, times, and half a time) of Daniel 12 begin? When does the Bible show that economic collapse will affect the United States?
Should the Church Still Try to Place its Top Priority on Proclaiming the Gospel or Did Herbert W. Armstrong Change that Priority for the Work? Some say the Church should mainly feed the flock now as that is what Herbert W. Armstrong reportedly said. Is that what he said? Is that what the Bible says? What did Paul and Herbert W. Armstrong expect from evangelists?
There is a Place of Safety for the Philadelphians. Why it May Be Petra This article discusses a biblical ‘place of safety’ and includes quotes from the Bible and Herbert W. Armstrong on this subject–thus, there is a biblically supported alternative to the rapture theory.
Why Be Concerned About False and Heretical Leaders? There have been many false leaders–here is some of why you should be concerned about them.
Does God Have a 6,000 Year Plan? What Year Does the 6,000 Years End? Was a 6000 year time allowed for humans to rule followed by a literal thousand year reign of Christ on Earth taught by the early Christians? What year may the six thousand years of human rule end? When will Jesus return? 2018 or 2019?
Can the Great Tribulation Begin in 2012, 2013, or 2014? Can the Great Tribulation begin today? What happens before in the “beginning of sorrows”? What happens in the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord? When is the earliest that the Great Tribulation can begin? What is the Day of the Lord?
End of Mayan Calendar 2012–Might 2012 Mean Something? Are there Mayan calendar predictions for change in 2012? Changes were centuries ago predicted by the Hopi Native Americans. Do Mayan/Hindu/Hopi/Buddhist/New Age/Nostradamus prophecies have any value here? Why might Satan have inspired this date? Does the Dresden codex show destruction of the earth by flood? Can the great tribulation start before 2012? How might Barack Obama be involved in 2012?