Rabbi: You may not see Messiah until after it happens, if you even see it then
Breaking Israel News reported the following:
6 September 2018
As the Hebrew year 5778 comes to a close, Breaking Israel News asked several end-of-days experts about how this year fits into the Geula (redemption) process and whether the Messiah can be expected to arrive in 5779. Though the questions seemed entirely hypothetical, the answers were not.
“You may not see Messiah until after it happens, if you even see it then” …
“We are unquestionably deep into the final stage of the geula and this past year was clearly a large step forward in the process,” Rabbi Winston told Breaking Israel News. “This is something we should be talking about more but few people are thinking about it in a real-world way. Existing in a non-geula frame of reference makes it impossible to even see it when it happens. Unfortunately, the Jewish world is trained to avoid acknowledging the possibility of the Messiah because of our history of false Messiahs, like Shabbetai Tzvi (in the 17th century), and because of Christianity’s emphasis on the Messiah.” …
“The Gaon wrote that tchiyat hametim (resurrection of the dead) will take place 210-214 years before the year 6000. That means that tchiyat hametim could begin in nine to thirteen years. What is significant about that is that when it begins, it means that the messiah has already come and gone. His work is already done and the next stage is beginning. God is bringing back the dead to prepare them for the world-to-come. This is a lengthy process and won’t happen overnight.”
“That being said, it means that Moshiach must come sometime within the next nine years.” …
“This Rosh Hashanah, I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. The rubber band is stretched as far as it can go. It should have snapped this year. I am waiting for the boom, which would be the war of Gog and Magog.” …
Rabbi Berger said. …
“We are required by the Torah to anticipate the Messiah at every moment. No one can say when. But a person who says there never will be a Messiah is simply speaking foolishness. How could he possibly know what will be in the future? From what I am seeing, I know that the geula is close.” https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/113577/light-coming-redemption-blinding/
Before going further, let me note that the claim we are about to enter the year 5779 is off by around 200 years. Here is information on our latest uploaded video:
Jewish Year 5779 or 5990?
According to the Jewish ‘Seder Olam Rabbah’ the period from sunset 9 September 2018 to 29 September 2019 is the year 5779 Anno Mundi (age of the world). However, the Jewish Encyclopedia, secular scholars, and modern Jewish experts have all claimed that the count is off between 164 to 200 plus years. Are we closer to the year 5990 than 5779 since Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden? Why would the Seder Olam be off by so much? Does any of this have anything to do with deceit and pointing to the false ‘messiah’ Simon Bar Kochba? Was the Messiah supposed to come after 4000 or 6000 years? Does Daniel 9:26 clearly point to Jesus? Dr. Thiel refers to Jewish accepted and other sources to answer these questions?
Here is a link to the video: Jewish Year 5779 or 5990?
Now, could the Messiah return in nine years?
Well, that is a possibility. See also Does God Have a 6,000 Year Plan? What Year Does the 6,000 Years End?
But notice that I wrote return, as opposed to Rabbi Winston’s view that ‘Moshiach ‘ (the Messiah) would first come then.
Note: The claim by some, including some Jews and Protestants, that the Gog and Magog battle will be soon is in massive error. For details, check out the article: Ezekiel 38: For Russia & Iran in Our Day?
Perhaps it should be mentioned that even some old Jewish writings support the view that the Messiah would come twice. Notice the following from my free online book Proof Jesus is the Messiah:
Notice the following from the Hungarian-Jewish author Raphael Patai:
Messiah ben Joseph, also called Messiah ben Ephraim, referring to his ancestor Ephraim, the son of Joseph, is imagined as the first commander of the army of Israel in the Messianic wars. He will achieve many signal victories, but his fate is to die at the hands of Armilus in a great battle in which Israel is defeated by Gog and Magog. His corpse is left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem for forty days, but neither beast nor bird of prey dares to touch it. Then, Messiah ben David comes, and his first act is to bring about the resurrection of his tragic forerunner.
Scholars have repeatedly speculated about the origin of the Messiah ben Joseph legend and the curious fact that the Messiah figure has thus been split in two. It would seem that in the early legend, the death of the Messiah was envisaged, perhaps as a development of the Suffering Servant motif. A prophecy of Daniel, … is the earliest source speaking of the death of a Mashiah (“Anointed”) sixty-two (prophetic) weeks after his coming and after the return and the rebuilding of Jerusalem (Dan. 9:24-26). While it appears that Daniel had a temporal ruler in mind, whom he calls Mashiah Nagid (“Anointed Prince”), … later, the author of 4 Ezra unmistakably refers to the Messiah, belief in whom had developed in the meantime, when he puts words in the mouth of God to the effect that after four hundred years (counted from when?), MY son the Messiah shall die (4 Ezra 7:27-30).
When the death of the Messiah became an established tenet in Talmudic times, this was felt to be irreconcilable with the belief in the Messiah as the Redeemer who would usher in the blissful millennium of the Messianic age. The dilemma was solved by splitting the person of the Messiah in two: one of them, called Messiah ben Joseph, was to raise the armies of Israel against their enemies, and, after many victories and miracles, would fall victim to Gog and Magog. The other, Messiah ben David, will come after him (in some legends will bring him back to life, which psychologically hints at the identity of the two), and will lead Israel to the ultimate victory, the triumph, and the Messianic era of bliss.
This splitting of the Messiah in two persons, which took place in the Talmudic period, achieved another purpose besides resolving the dilemma of the slain Messiah. According to an old tradition, the Messiah was perfectly prefigured in Moses. But Moses died before he could lead the Children of Israel into the Land of Promise. Consequently, for the parallel to be complete, the Messiah, too, had to die before accomplishing his great task of ultimate Redemption. Since however, the Messiah would not be the True Redeemer of God if he did not fulfill that ultimate task, the only solution was to let one Messiah, like Moses, die, and then assign the completion of the work of Redemption to a second Messiah. (Patai R. The Messiah Texts: Jewish Legends of Three Thousand Years. Wayne State University Press, 2015, pp. 165-166)
Thus, it should be clear that some Jewish scholars felt the Messiah could suffer or die. Furthermore, though the above comes up with two Messiahs, the Bible shows that Jesus came once—and fulfilled over 200 prophecies—and that Jesus will come a second time to fulfill others. …
Furthermore:
On the Great Day of Atonement the Jew feels that his sins must be forgiven before God. On that day even Isaiah 53 is sometimes mentioned. Although Isaiah 53 has been omitted from the annual reading of the prophets, so called haphtaroth, it appears in a remarkable prayer which is read in the Synagogue. The separate prayerbook for the feast days, the Mahzor Rabbah, contains a literary prayer by Rabbi Eleazar Qalir which may be from the ninth or even from the sixth century AD. … The main body of the prayer reads as follows:
“Then, before the creation, he already set up the Temple and the Messiah (the Rabbis’ interpretation) – the Messiah our Righteousness has turned away from us, we are shaken, and can find no-one who can justify us. The yoke of our sins and our transgressions is a burden to us; and he was wounded for our transgressions, he suffered on his shoulders our iniquities-, there is forgiveness for our sins. In his wounds we are healed; it is time to create for ever a new creation. Send him back from the circles, bring him back from Seir, so that we might hear him in Lebanon a second time through Yinnon. He is our God, our Father, our King, he is our Saviour and he will liberate and redeem us for a second time and let us hear of his grace a second time in everyone’s sight, as it is said: ‘I will save you at the end as at the beginning so that I will be your God.” (Santala, pp. 111-112)
Thus, there are several reasons to conclude that some early Jews did believe that some of the passages of the servant in Isaiah 52/53 were messianic. Denying that in the 20th and 21st centuries does not change historical facts. The view that an old Atonement prayer supports the idea of a second coming of a messiah from a Jewish perspective is also interesting.
Perhaps it should be pointed out that Risto Santala translated a portion of the Ruth Rabbah V,8,1 as follows:
the kingdom taken from him for a time … he was restored to his kingdom (Santala, p. 126)
The above is consistent with a second coming of the messiah, like Christians teach. (Thiel B. Proof Jesus is the Messiah. Nazarene Books, 2018)
But let’s look at something from the Hebrew scriptures that the Hungarian-Jewish author Raphael Patai alluded to:
25 “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. (Daniel 9:25-26)
As it turns out, Jesus came when that prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures (the Old Testament) said the Prince Messiah would come. The Jews should have realized this.
The historical fact that the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. and the biblical prophecy shows that the Messiah would come BEFORE the Temple was destroyed, should be proof to the Jews. Notice also a Jewish translation of Daniel 9:26:
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over. (Daniel 9:26, CJB)
The “anointed one” is the Messiah (rendered as the “Mashiach” in the Complete Jewish Bible). Thus, Jews should clearly realize that the Messiah already came and most did not recognize Him. Most still do not see Him. And furthermore, the nations of the world will be angry when Jesus returns and will fight against Him according to New Testament prophecies (see Revelation 11:15-18, 19:16-19).
Let’s look at an explanation from the old Radio Church of God about the Daniel 9 prophecy:
At the time of Jesus’ life on this earth, Herod — the king in Judea — the wise men from the nations to the east, and many of the priests, scribes, and elders, as well as the common people, realized that the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 was nearing its completion. The Messiah, the Prince, was eagerly looked forward to, to free them from the yoke of Roman oppression. The Messiah was expected because of an understanding of this prophecy. But He was misunderstood when He appeared in the fulfillment of this prophecy, because they refused to recognize the first portion of the prophecy and hung their hope only on the last portion. …
Here, very plainly, is listed the exact time at which the prophesied Messiah would appear to begin to do the work mentioned in verse 24. The command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. Much of the book of Ezra and the entire book of Nehemiah cover this particular event. Seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks equal sixty-nine weeks. So the prophecies show that from the going forth of the command to rebuild Jerusalem in 457 B. C. it would be 483 years until the appearance of the prophesied Messiah to begin fulfilling the works of verse 24. (Hill DJ. HERE’S WHY Jews Reject Jesus and Christians Reject Christ! Plain Truth, April 1962)
Adding 483 to the year 457 B.C. brings the year 27 A.D. (there was no year “zero” between B.C. and A.D.). That brings us to the time that Jesus began His ministry (apparently in the Fall of the year). His ministry is believed to have lasted 3 ½ years, hence the veil would have been torn in the Spring of 31 A.D.
Consider also something from the Jewish Babylonian Talmud:
Rav says: The son of David will not come until the evil Roman kingdom will disperse throughout Eretz Yisrael for nine months, as it is stated: “Therefore will He give them up, until the time when she who is in labor has given birth; then the remnant of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel” (Micah 5:2/3). Once a period equivalent to a term of pregnancy passes, the redemption will come. (Sanhedrin 98b)
The New Testament (cf. John 11:48), as well as Jewish and other historical sources, clearly say that the time Jesus came was when Rome controlled Israel. This is also consistent with some Jewish writings about the timing of the Messiah.
Notice also something from the prophet Hosea:
2 After two days will He revive us, On the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence. (Hosea 6:2, JPS)
While there have been comments on the above by Christians and others, for this chapter, let us notice a Jewish interpretation (scriptures in {} added by me):
Kattina said: Six thousand years shall the world exist, and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day {Isaiah 2:11}.
Abaye said: it will be desolate two [thousand], as it is said, After two days will he revive us: in the third day, he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight {Hosea 6:2}.
It has been taught in accordance with R. Kattina: Just as the seventh year is one year of release in seven, so is the world: one thousand years out of seven shall be fallow, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day,’ and it is further said, A Psalm and song for the Sabbath day {Psalm 92:1}, meaning the day that is altogether Sabbath — and it is also said, For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past {Psalm 90:4}.
The Tanna debe Eliyyahu {School of Elijah} teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost. (Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin Folio 97a,b).
Essentially, this Jewish interpretation is that since God has a 6000/7000 year plan, the 3 days in Hosea somehow represented 2000 years each. Tradition teaches that Elijah the prophet spoke about this. The Talmudic comments support the view that the Messiah was to come four thousand years after Adam and Eve were created (or perhaps when they left the Garden of Eden, though the Bible does not state how long they were in that Garden).
Since the New Testament shows that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod (Matthew 2:1) and that He was “about thirty” years of age when His ministry started (Luke 3:23), His ministry started basically when the four thousand years ended. Jesus, therefore, fulfilled a Jewish view here of the timing of the arrival of the Messiah. The “Messianic era” would be something we in the Continuing Church of God would call the Messianic age (beginning c. 27 A.D.) or “church age” (it began c. 31 A.D.) and it has lasted almost two thousand years. Jesus arrived when the Messiah was prophesied to arrive.
Sadly, despite the fact that Jesus fulfilled over 200 writings/prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures (for details, check out our free online book: Proof Jesus is the Messiah), many still do not see this.
The Jews should have accepted Jesus, but, as prophesied in the Bible, most rejected Him:
3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. (Isaiah 53:3)
21 The governor answered and said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?” They said, “Barabbas!” 22 Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?” They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!” 23 Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?” But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!” (Matthew 27:21-23)
The Jews expected Jesus to come as a king. But on His first coming He came as a Prince.
Regarding some Jewish messianic views, we put together a video on our Bible News Prophecy YouTube channel related to the Temple destruction and the Messiah:
Jerusalem Temple Destruction and the Messiah
Was there any connection between prophesies of the Messiah and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D? On the 9th day of the fifth month on the Hebrew calendar, Jews fast because of the destruction of that Temple and other events that have befell the Jews. Did you know that the Jews tie the birth of the Messiah in with the month of Av? They also tie positive events from then to ‘Rosh Hoshana’ in the month of Tishri. Is there any relationship to Jesus and the first feast in Tishri? Did Jesus’ prophesies related to the Temple come to pass? What do Jewish and non-Jewish sources report about what happened to Jerusalem and the Temple? Did Jesus come when the Messiah was prophesied to start His ministry in Daniel 9? What happened when Jesus was killed? Was there a time of transition until the Temple was to be destroyed on August 30, 70 A.D.? What should Jews and others do related to the Messiah and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem? What seems to have happened to some of the ashlar stones that were part of that Temple? Dr. Thiel addresses these issues and more.
Here is a link to our video: Jerusalem Temple Destruction and the Messiah.
Jews should have accepted Jesus. The New Testament records that He fulfilled over 200 prophecies in the Old Testament, He came when the Romans ruled, and the Temple was destroyed after Jesus came, consistent with the prophecy in Daniel 9.
For more details, check out our free online book: Proof Jesus is the Messiah.
Some items of possibly related interest may include:
Jesus: The Son of God and Saviour Who was Jesus? Why did He come to earth? What message did He bring? Is there evidence outside the Bible that He existed? Here is a YouTube sermon titled Jesus: Son of God and Saviour.
Proof Jesus is the Messiah This free book has over 200 Hebrew prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus. Plus, His arrival was consistent with specific prophecies and even Jewish interpretations of prophecy.
Is God Calling You? This is a booklet discussing calling, election, and selection. If God is calling you, how will you respond?
Christian Repentance Do you know what repentance is? Is it really necessary for salvation? A related sermon is also available titled: Real Christian Repentance.
Ezekiel 38: For Russia & Iran in Our Day? Is Ezekiel 38 about to be fulfilled? What about Gog and Magog? A related video is available titled Ezekiel 38: For Russia, Ukraine, & Iran Now? Another could be Russia, Iran, Syria, & the Bible (Code).
Does the ‘Cenacle’ deal have prophetic ramifications? After a 20 year negotiation, the Church of Rome has negotiated the right to have Catholic mass in the building known as the Cenacle. It is in the area where the Church of God on Jerusalem’s Western Hill once stood. This is believed to be the location of the earliest Christian church building. How does the Bible define the ‘temple of God’ in the New Testament? Could this be the area where the ‘man of sin’ will sit in the “temple of God’ that Bible prophecy discusses in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4? This is a YouTube video.
The ‘Peace Deal’ of Daniel 9:27 This prophecy could give up to 3 1/2 years advance notice of the coming Great Tribulation. Will most ignore or misunderstand its fulfillment? Here is a link to a related sermon video Daniel 9:27 and the Start of the Great Tribulation.
Jerusalem: Past, Present, and Future What does the Bible say about Jerusalem and its future? Is Jerusalem going to be divided and eliminated? Is Jesus returning to the area of Jerusalem? There is also a related YouTube video you can watch titled Jerusalem To be divided and eliminated.
Who is the Man of Sin of 2 Thessalonians 2? Is this the King of the North, the ten-horned beast of Revelation 13:1-11, or the two-horned Beast of Revelation 13:12-16? Some rely on traditions, but what does the Bible teach? Here is a related link in Spanish/español: ¿Quién es el Hombre de Pecado de 2 Tesalonicenses 2? Here is a version in Mandarin: 主编： 谁是’大罪人’？Here is a link to a related YouTube video, in English, titled Who is the Man of Sin?
Does God Have a 6,000 Year Plan? What Year Does the 6,000 Years End? Was a 6000 year time allowed for humans to rule followed by a literal thousand year reign of Christ on Earth taught by the early Christians? Does God have 7,000 year plan? What year may the six thousand years of human rule end? When will Jesus return? 2026 or 20xx? There is also a video titled 6000 Years: When will God’s Kingdom Come? Here is a link to the article in Spanish: ¿Tiene Dios un plan de 6,000 años?
When Will the Great Tribulation Begin? 2018, 2019, or 2020? Can the Great Tribulation begin today? What happens before the Great Tribulation in the “beginning of sorrows”? What happens in the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord? Is this the time of the Gentiles? When is the earliest that the Great Tribulation can begin? What is the Day of the Lord? Who are the 144,000? Here is a version of the article in the Spanish language: ¿Puede comenzar la Gran Tribulación en 2018 o 2019? ¿Es el Tiempo de los Gentiles? You can also see the English language sermon videos: The Great Tribulation from the Mount of Olives and Can the Great Tribulation begin before 2020? A shorter video is: Can the Great Tribulation begin in 2018?
The Times of the Gentiles Has there been more than one time of the Gentiles? Are we in it now or in the time of Anglo-America? What will the final time of the Gentiles be like? A related sermon is available and is titled: The Times of the Gentiles.
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