King of the South in Prophecy

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Today, I was asked a question about the King of the South in prophecy as James Malm improperly posted something about me that was not correct.

So, here is what I sent James Malm about it:

Dear James:

Someone told me that you posted the following:

Bob Thiel over at COGWRITER.COM is writing that the present unrest in Egypt and the Islamic world may lead to what LCG and the other major COG Groups claim is a coalescing of Islamic Extremism into the King of the South. They claim that a group of Islamic mations will defeat the United States after which they shall fight Europe.

This is not really what we teach.

Here is specifically what the COGwriter.com site has concerning the prophetic order in my article on the King of the North:

The Bible itself teaches that the King of the North will act against the strongest fortresses (Daniel 11:39) and later (Daniel 11:40-43) the King of the South…

Specifically notice that the Bible shows that this King of the North will destroy those who are perceived to have the strongest military might and apparently divide up their land:

39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain (Daniel 11:39).

The strongest fortresses in the world belong to the USA and its English-speaking allies (for a more detailed explanation of why the USA and its Anglo-allies are involved, as well as the dividing of their lands, please see Anglo – America in Prophecy & the Lost Tribes of Israel)…

When the final contest between the King of the North vs. the King of the South occurs, the King of the South will lose:

40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels.

…The Bible is certain that this final King of the North will eventually be destroyed by those from the north and east (probably Russia, China, and India):

44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him (Daniel 11:44-45).

Anyway, that is the sequence at COGwriter from the article Who is the King of the North? www.cogwriter.com/kingofthenorth.htm

We in the Living Church of God teach that the King of the South will be an Islamic power comprised mainly of people from the North Africa and the Middle East.

While it is true that we in the Living Church of God believe that the Muslims will cooperate with the Europeans in the defeat of the Israelite descended nations like the United States per Psalm 83, I have never claimed “that a group of Islamic nations will defeat the United States after which they shall fight Europe”.

My position has always been that the USA will be defeated by the King of the North (with assistance from the King of the South and likely others), after which the King of the South will push against the King of the North and be defeated.

Regards,

Bob Thiel

James Malm graciously sent me an apology for his misunderstanding which I just received. I presume he will post what I sent him.

Perhaps I should have added that the late John Ogwyn of the Living Church of God wrote:

A powerful war-making apparatus marshaled by the coming European superpower will be billed as the cornerstone of world peace and security. Modern technology will be used to create a police-state that Hitler and Stalin could only have dreamed about. People will be induced to accept such draconian measures as the price of getting rid of terrorism and violent crime. At first, this system will bring an upsurge in the world economy. A worldwide trading combine, prophesied in Ezekiel 27 and Revelation 18, will be hailed as the key to universal prosperity. Those at the helm of this system will, for a short time, enjoy unparalleled wealth.

Yet fatal flaws in this system, inherent from its beginning, will in time produce widening disparities. The Arab world will be displeased by attempts to coerce it into religious unity with Europe. A powerful leader—called in Daniel 11 the “king of the South”—will…bring about temporary unity of much of the Islamic world. Provoked by this leader, Europe will launch a “blitzkrieg” resulting in European occupation of much of the Arab world (Daniel 11:40–43). (Ogwyn J. The Beast of Revelation: Myth, Metaphor or Soon-Coming Reality? Online version 03/14/07.)

In my book, 2012 and the Rise of the Secret Sect I specifically wrote the following:

Presuming that the republics of the U.S.A. and its allies are taken over in verse 39, there are several reasons why the King of the South may decide to launch his major attack shortly thereafter:

1) The fact that “the Great Satan,” a term that certain Moslems call the U.S.A., has been eliminated, the King of the South will realize that the deals made (Daniel 11:27; Psalm 83) with the Assyrian King of the North are of little or no value anymore.

2) Next, without the nominally Protestant U.S.A. in its way, the King of the North will try to impose its non-Moslem religion on more and more of the world. As many Arabs tend to be more devoutly religious than the Chinese and Russians, they are more likely to get upset with this before the Kings of the East and North-East do (which occurs in Daniel 11:44).

3) Because the Arab confederation wanted to eliminate Israel (Psalm 83 most likely refers to the nation of Israel as well as the U.S.A. and any other serious Israeli allies), it probably will think that its actions greatly helped the Europeans accomplish this. Because of this thinking, the King of the South may become emboldened.

4) It is also likely that the King of the South will feel that the conquest of the U.S.A. and its allies will strain the military of the King of the North. The King of the South may believe it is an ideal time to strike. This is likely, as one of the reasons that the U.S.A. may be so easy to take over is because its own military has been strained, given that the U.S.A. has been spreading its military strength quite thin in the 21^st century.

5) Increasing displays of crosses, combined with people following wonders (such as perhaps including apparitions claiming to be Mary), will get many in the Arab lands to remember the crusades. Enough will hold to some version of Islam that they will fear an attack must be made or Islam will be defeated.

6) Finally, as many of the Arab economies are dependent upon oil revenues, and most oil fields will have passed their halfway point of production by that stage (and many of its weapons will be of Anglo-American origins), the King of the South may decide that there is no better time to attack.

Also note that this attack against the King of the South occurs “at the time of the end.”

Since all the events in Egypt, many have questions about who will be the King of the South. So, here are some quotes from my article Is There A Future King of the South?

In the July-August 2004 edition of the Living Church News, R.C. Meredith of the Living Church of God (LCG) wrote:

The final fulfillment of the prophecies about the coming King of the South are certainly yet to come. But, even now, it is obvious that many events now indicate that the stage is being set for the powerful Muslim leader indicated in Daniel 11:40–43…

The Old WCG Taught About the King of the South…

Now, it is easy to demonstrate that HWA’s WCG did teach that there would be a future King of the South and who WCG believed it would be.

One is a quote from the July 1963 Plain Truth article by Garner Ted Armstrong titled “And when you see the Abomination…”:

Daniel was given specific visions of events to occur in OUR TIME!…Notice! And at the TIME OF THE END (this prophecy, then, is absolutely DATED as pertaining to OUR DAY, NOW) shall the king of the south push at him (the “king of the north”) and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over” (verse 40). Bible scholars have recognized the FIRST, TYPICAL fulfillment of this surprising prophecy, but have failed to see its LITERAL application to OUR TIMES!…

But what of tbe MODERN powers meant by these desig· nations? Remember-the Bible is written, SPIRITUALLY and GEOGRAPHICALLY, from the point of view of PALESTINE! If you were to look on a map, and try to find two powers fitting this description, you would have a fairly easy task…Who else could this be, then, except the coming UNITED STATES OF EUROPE, a resurrection of the ancient ROMAN EMPIRE, JUSt as we have been fearlessly proclaiming…A rearmed GERMANY, heading up a final union…IN EUROPE -THIS is the Biblical KING OF THE NORTH!

The king of the South? EGYPT, of course. But not Egypt of today. Egypt of a few more years from now–Egypt as she continues to expand the U.A.R., bringing more and more of the North Africa Mohammedan nations into the same Afro-Arabian power block! (p. 22).

…Another is a quote from the August 1974 Good News article by Raymond McNair titled Watch the Middle East where he stated:

The longest prophecy of the Bible, the eleventh chapter of Daniel, specifically concerns the Middle East…verses 40-45 are yet to be fulfilled. They reveal that startling events are yet to take place in the Middle East… (p.12).

Thus, WCG was teaching, under HWA for at least the last 22 1/2 years of his life, that at least from verses 40 and on, that portions of Daniel 11 were yet to be fulfilled…

Garner Ted Armstrong in a May 3, 1975 Plain Truth article titled Watch the Middle East wrote

Prophecy says some sort of a ‘shoving match’ precipitated by the ‘King of the South’ will unleash whirlwind lightening-like MILITARY response by a ‘King of the North’.

So the first two quotes from the literature show that WCG did believe in a future ‘King of the South’, but did not clearly identify who.

In a December 1979 Plain Truth article by Keith Stump titled The Arab World in Prophecy it states

But who is the “king of the south”?…in verse 40 we skip to “the time of the end”…The verse undoubtedly found partial fulfillment in the offensive of 1896…But Mussolini did not finish the prophecy…Just as there is yet to be a final “king of the north”…there may very well emerge in the same manner a final “king of the south”–an overall leader of an Arab-Moslem confederation, possibly bearing the very title Mahdi…a prophetic psalm (Psalm 83) provides additional insight into the Mideast picture. Germany (Assyria in Bible prophecy) and perhaps the rest of Europe will be in league in the future with a union of Arab nations…But in the end, this European-Arab alliance will prove short-lived…And the king of the north shall come against him [the king of the south]…The Arab-Moslem Confederation will, of course, be thrown into chaotic disarray in the fact of invasion. (Stump K. The Arab World in Prophecy. Plain Truth, December 1979, pp. 11-12).

The Living Church of God has written:

Indeed, a coming “Mahdi” whose arrival Muslims are expecting—in Bible prophecy known as the “King of the South” (Daniel 11:40–45)—will soon arise and have a dramatic impact on world events. This powerful Muslim religious leader will unite many of the more than one billion Muslims. He will pose a genuine threat to the coming European Empire, which will have to crush that threat in order to continue exploiting Middle Eastern oil to further its military ambitions. (Meredith RC. Prophecy Fulfilled: God’s Hand in World Affairs. LCG Booklet, 2007, pp. 16-17)

(Note: There is actually a Shiite prophecy that some believe points to Barack Obama as one who will help the final “Mahdi” (Arabic for “the guided one”), please see Obama in Islamic Prophecy?,Prophecies of Barack Obama?, and The Arab World In the Bible, History, and Prophecy.) This leader is sometimes also called the Imam Mahdi or the thirteenth Imam by Muslims.

Though not all Muslims expect the Imam Mahdi, many still seem to long for a leader to unify the Arab World. Some Muslims are looking for a political-spiritual leader, sometimes called the Caliph in English, to rise up (Caliph is a shortened version of “Khalifah rasul Allah” meaning “Successor to the Messenger of God”). The title caliph has been given to the head of state in Muslim-governed countries in the past, though the latter ones lacked the power of the earlier ones:

The supreme office of caliph, originally elective, became hereditary…Eventually…caliphs became figurehead or “puppet” leaders…Many Arabs…seek to re-create the political and theological unity of the early Islamic caliphate (Stump K. The Arab World in Prophecy. Plain Truth, December 1979, pp. 9-10).

Perhaps it should be mentioned that for the past couple of years I have wondered how a pan-Arabic entity would form. And over the past couple of years at least two somewhat have. One is the Union of Mediterranean States which includes nearly all the Arab nations in somewhat of a pack with Europe. The other is the monetary union that the Gulf-oil states have been working on (on December 15, 2009 Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Qatar announced the creation of a Monetary Council to come up essentially with their own currency and to get away from the US dollar).

The tie of religion, which has existed for centuries among most of the Arabs, has always been in the back of my mind. There have been supranational groups like the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood, but the time was not right for any of them to bring about pan-Arabic unity. The first three groups have tended to be considered too radical, while many have considered that the Muslim Brotherhood was not radical enough (though this seems to be changing). The Muslim Brotherhood, which was formed in Egypt in 1928, has long been banned in Egypt (which is why its members/leaders are sometimes jailed there).

As far as what the Muslim Brotherhood wants to accomplish, Wikipedia reports:

In the group’s belief, the Quran and Sunnah constitute a perfect way of life and social and political organization that God has set out for man. Islamic governments must be based on this system and eventually unified in a Caliphate. The Muslim Brotherhood’s goal, as stated by Brotherhood founder Hassan al-Banna was to reclaim Islam’s manifest destiny, an empire, stretching from Spain to Indonesia.

To bring enough Arab nations together, I have felt that some type of “strongman” needed to rise up. One who Arabs would tend to respect. The time may be now and the Muslim Brotherhood may play an important role. The Muslim Brotherhood is is the world’s oldest and largest Islamic political group and has been called the “world’s most influential Islamist movement” (http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/2010/11/2010111681527837704.html)

In the Plain Truth of December 1980–the year that HWA often claimed he now had the Church back on track–another article states:

Bible prophecy reveals the coming emergence of an Arab-Moslem confederation in the Middle East. It is referred to in prophecy as the ‘king of the south’ (Daniel 11:40). This confederation will play a crucial role in end-time events (Stump, K. Plain Truth. December 1980, p.26).

A related Plain Truth article states:

Bible prophecy reveals the coming emergence of an Arab-Moslem confederation in the Middle East. It is referred to in prophecy as “the king of the south” (Dan. 11:40). This confederation will play a crucial role in end-time events. (Stump K. Seeing the World Through Islamic Eyes. Plain Truth, June 1983, p.44).

These quotes make it clear that WCG’s written position was that there would be a future King of the South–an Arabic-Islamic confederation…

Anyway, to learn more about the Kings of the North and South, please check out the following articles:

Who is the King of the North? Is there one? Do biblical and Roman Catholic prophecies point to the same leader? Should he be followed? Who will be the King of the North discussed in Daniel 11? Is a nuclear attack prophesied to happen to the English-speaking peoples of the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand? When do the 1335 days, 1290 days, and 1260 days (the time, times, and half a time) of Daniel 12 begin? When does the Bible show that economic collapse will affect the United States?
Might German Baron Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg become the King of the North? Is the German Defense Minister one to watch? What do Catholic, Byzantine, and biblical prophecies suggest?
Is Russia the King of the North? Some claim it is. But what does the Bible teach?
Is There an Islamic Antichrist?Is Joel Richardson correct that the final Antichrist will be Islamic and not European? Find out.
Is There A Future King of the South? Some no longer believe there needs to be. Might Egypt, Islam, Iran, Arabs, or Ethiopia be involved? Might this King be called the Mahdi? What does the Bible say?
The Arab and Islamic World In the Bible, History, and Prophecy The Bible discusses the origins of the Arab world and discusses the Middle East in prophecy. What is ahead for the Middle East and those who follow Islam? What about the Imam Mahdi? What lies ahead for Turkey, Iran, and the other non-Arabic Muslims?

A more detailed explanation on the Kings of the North and South and prophetic sequencing is contained in my book:

2012 and the Rise of the Secret Sect This is a link related to a book by Bob Thiel (COGwriter). This link also has YouTube videos. This book documents and explains hundreds of prophecies. And since it was published, world events have aligned with at least 14 predictions in the book and many more will to come to pass.
2012 y el surgimiento de la secta secreta 2012 libro del Dr. Thiel en Español.
2012 und das Auftreten der geheimen Sekte (German Edition) 2012 Buch von Dr. Thiel in deutscher Sprache.
2012 e o Surgimento da Seita Secreta (Portuguese Edition) 2012 livro do Dr. Thiel em Português. Este livro documenta e explica centenas de profecias. E desde que foi publicado pela primeira vez, pelo menos 14 já começaram a acontecer.