Church of God News

COGwriter

Some may wonder why relatively little is reported here about David Hulme’s COGaIC. Basically, since it had a split years ago, there has not been much to report about that group as they have had less impact, less public info, and have written less about church history.

Currently it’s quarterly magazine, Vision, tends to be a collection of short articles on societal matters with scriptures (I just looked at a few).

However there is something related to church history to cover. Many years back, David Hulme of COGaIC interviewed John Garr about church history. Here is how that interview began:

Reexamining the roots of Christianity has become a major endeavor among New Testament scholars. In an attempt to better understand and relate to Judaism in the wake of the Holocaust/Shoah, their studies have yielded some surprising admissions and necessary corrections to the way Jesus of Nazareth, Paul of Tarsus and the early Church are regarded. A general conclusion is that first-century Christianity was far more Jewish or Hebraic in its beliefs and practices than has been accepted for almost 2,000 years.

One scholar who has pondered the implications of these rediscovered roots is John Garr, president of Restoration Foundation, which specializes in making known the Hebrew heritage of what came to be called Christianity. Vision publisher David Hulme interviewed him…

DH You have written: “In the middle of the second century, the Hebrew foundations of Christian faith were attacked by the first great heresy that challenged the church.” You also note that “some of the ideas of this heresy so permeated the church’s corporate psyche that it has not yet fully recovered its spiritual and scriptural equilibrium.” What was the heresy and what has been its specific effect?

JG The heresy was called Marcionism after Marcion, a very wealthy man who was strongly influenced by Hellenic culture, the ideas of Plato, and much of Gnosticism. Marcion wanted to separate Christianity from any connection with Judaism and the law. He said that the Old Testament was a record of a failed religion that should be destroyed, and actually had been destroyed by Jesus Himself. He even went so far as to rewrite Matthew 5:17, where Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, “Think not that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to destroy them but to fulfill them.” Marcion turned it around and said that Jesus’ actual words were “Think not that I have come to fulfill the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to fulfill them but to destroy them.” Further, he took some of Paul’s epistles and some sections of the book of Luke and edited them to eliminate any connection with Judaism or the Old Testament. As a result of his actions, church leaders finally branded him a heretic and excommunicated him.

With this background one would think Marcion would have faded into history, but the residue of his influence has continued to permeate the Christian church even to the present time. It is probably best characterized as antinomianism—the position of being against the law—which is very much a part of many denominations. Many antinomians would say that they are preaching the gospel of the grace of God, and that grace and law are violently opposed to each other and cannot exist in one another’s presence. So the idea that the law has been completely abrogated, that the Old Testament is no more of any effect, that Jesus came to destroy the law, and that believers today are only under the grace of God, is fundamentally neo-Marcionism…Von Harnack’s thinking in this regard was really a pure form of neo-Marcionism. He went so far as to say that if the church had had the courage to do so, it would have recognized that Marcion was right, that Judaism had been abolished and the law destroyed. He was very adamant about that view.

The above interview did not go into much more detail about Marcion and his heresies, but there is an article at the COGwriter.com website that does: Marcion: The First Protestant?

Irenaeus in the second century noted that the faithful Polycarp opposed Marcion:

But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time — a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles — that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, “Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within.” And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, “Dost thou know me?” “I do know thee, the first-born of Satan.”(Irenaeus. Adversus Haereses. Book III, Chapter 3, Verse 4. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1885. Online Edition Copyright © 2004 by K. Knight).

Polycarp, and other true early Christian writers, kept all the ten commandments that were first mentioned in the Old Testament (an article of related interest may be The Ten Commandments and the Early Church). This is how Polycarp (and others) differed from many of the early heretics like Marcion.

Another to specifically oppose Marcion was Theophilus of Antioch (late 2nd century). The Syriatic version of Eusebius’ Church History notes:

BUT as to Theophilus, concerning whom we have said that he was Bishop of Antioch, there are three treatises by him against Antolycus, and another which is inscribed “Against the heresy of Hermogenes,” in which he uses testimonies from the Revelation of John; and there are other books by him which are suitable for teaching. But those, who pertained to heretical doctrine, even at that time like tares were corrupting the pure seed of the doctrine of the Apostles; but the Pastors which were in the churches in every country, were driving them like beasts of the wilderness away from the flock of Christ; at one time by teaching and exhortation to the Brethren, but at another time openly before their faces they contended with them in discussion, and put them to shame; and again, also, by writing treatises they diligently refuted and exposed their opinions. But Theophilus, together with others, contended against them; and he is celebrated for one treatise, which was ably composed by him against Marcion, which, together with the others that I have already mentioned, is still preserved. And after him Maximinus received the Bishoprick of the Church of Antioch, who was the seventh after the Apostles.

But Philip, respecting whom we have learned from the words of Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth,2 that he was Bishop of the church of the city of Gortyna, he also composed with accuracy a treatise against Marcion (Eusebius of Caesarea, Ecclesiastical History, Syriac version, Book 4 (Extract), Chapter 24. Spicilegium Syriacum (1855). This text was transcribed by Roger Pearse, Ipswich, UK, 2003. Greek text is rendered using the Scholars Press SPIonic font/Polytonic Greek).

This is of interest because it shows that both Philip and Theophilus also wrote against the heretic Marcion (though the document, while apparently available to Eusebius, is currently unavailable).

Notice what the Protestant historian Kenneth Latourette stated:

Marcion insisted that the Church had obscured the Gospel by seeking to combine it with Judaism (Latourette KS. A History of Christianity, Volume 1: to A.D. 1500. HarperCollins, San Francisco, 1975, p. 126).

In other words, the original true Church of God truly did combine faith in Christ with practices that Marcion considered to be too Jewish. And Marcion was denounced by leaders from Asia Minor for rejecting the true faith.

Most know very little about early church history or where their doctrines came from–and what many think they know is clouded by misinformation and misconceptions.

But those willing to be called and led by God can find the truth in the Bible and the scattered records of early church history (e.g. the free booklet Continuing History of the Church of God).

COGaIC used to post more related to its understandings of early Church History in a blog called “First Followers.” However, after 2011, this reduced to only one or two posts per year there, and since the departure of Peter Nathan from COGaIC, that blog seems to have been removed.

Those interested in early Christianity may wish to read the following documented articles to learn more:

Marcion: The First Protestant? Considered to have been an organized heretic, he taught against the Old Testament, the law, and the Sabbath. Some have considered him to be the first Protestant reformer. But was he? Here is a link to a related sermon: Marcion: The first Protestant reformer?
Where is the True Christian Church Today? This free online pdf booklet answers that question and includes 18 proofs, clues, and signs to identify the true vs. false Christian church. Plus 7 proofs, clues, and signs to help identify Laodicean churches. A related sermon is also available: Where is the True Christian Church? Here is a link to the booklet in the Spanish language: ¿Dónde está la verdadera Iglesia cristiana de hoy? Here is a link in the German language: WO IST DIE WAHRE CHRISTLICHE KIRCHE HEUTE? Here is a link in the French language: Où est la vraie Église Chrétienne aujourd’hui? Here is a link to a short animation: Which Church would Jesus Choose?
Continuing History of the Church of God This pdf booklet is a historical overview of the true Church of God and some of its main opponents from Acts 2 to the 21st century. Related sermon links include Continuing History of the Church of God: c. 31 to c. 300 A.D. and Continuing History of the Church of God: 4th-16th Centuries and Continuing History of the Church of God: 17th-20th Centuries. The booklet is available in Spanish: Continuación de la Historia de la Iglesia de Dios, German: Kontinuierliche Geschichte der Kirche Gottes, French: L Histoire Continue de l Église de Dieu and Ekegusii Omogano Bw’ekanisa Ya Nyasae Egendererete.
Do You Practice Mithraism? Many practices and doctrines that mainstream so-called Christian groups have are the same or similar to those of the sun-god Mithras. December 25th was celebrated as his birthday. Do you follow Mithraism combined with the Bible or original Christianity?
Hope of Salvation: How the Continuing Church of God Differs from Protestantism The CCOG is NOT Protestant. This free online book explains how the real Church of God differs from mainstream/traditional Protestants. Several sermons related to the free book are also available: Protestant, Baptist, and CCOG History; The First Protestant, God’s Command, Grace, & Character; The New Testament, Martin Luther, and the Canon; Eucharist, Passover, and Easter; Views of Jews, Lost Tribes, Warfare, & Baptism; Scripture vs. Tradition, Sabbath vs. Sunday; Church Services, Sunday, Heaven, and God’s Plan; Seventh Day Baptists/Adventists/Messianics: Protestant or COG?; Millennial Kingdom of God and God’s Plan of Salvation; Crosses, Trees, Tithes, and Unclean Meats; The Godhead and the Trinity; Fleeing or Rapture?; and Ecumenism, Rome, and CCOG Differences.
The Similarities and Dissimilarities between Martin Luther and Herbert W. Armstrong This article clearly shows some of the doctrinal differences between in the two. At this time of doctrinal variety and a tendency by many to accept certain aspects of Protestantism, the article should help clarify why the genuine Church of God is NOT Protestant. Do you really know what the Protestant Reformer Martin Luther taught and should you follow his doctrinal example? Here is a related sermon video: Martin Luther and Herbert Armstrong: Reformers with Differences.
The History of Early Christianity Are you aware that what most people believe is not what truly happened to the true Christian church? Do you know where the early church was based? Do you know what were the doctrines of the early church? Is your faith really based upon the truth or compromise?
Polycarp of Smyrna: The Heretic Fighter Polycarp was the successor of the Apostle John and a major leader in Asia Minor. Do you know much about what he taught? A YouTube video or related interesy may be: Polycarp of Smyrna: Why Christians should know more about him.
Nazarene Christianity: Were the Original Christians Nazarenes? Who were the Nazarene Christians? What did they believe? Should 21st century Christians be modern Nazarenes? Is there a group that exists now that traces its history through the Nazarenes and holds the same beliefs today? Here is a link to a related video sermon Nazarene Christians: Were the early Christians “Nazarenes”?
Location of the Early Church: Another Look at Ephesus, Smyrna, and Rome What actually happened to the primitive Church? And did the Bible tell about this in advance?
Church of God, an International Community (COG aic) This is the group led by David Hulme. It seems to minimize parts of biblical prophecy.

Parts of the January-February 2018 edition of the Bible Advocate

COGwriter

In a previous edition of its Bible Advocate magazine (Jan-Feb 2018), Church of God, Seventh Day-Denver (CG7-D) somewhat asserted its binitarian view of the Godhead:

Statement of Faith 2 The Deity

This we believe:

The sovereign deity of the universe is God Almighty, who is to be worshiped in spirit and in truth. He is eternal, infinite, holy, self-existent Spirit who created, sustains, rules, redeems, and judges His creation. He is one in nature, essence and being. God is revealed in Scripture as Father and Son. …

One God, revealed as Father and Son From start to finish, the Bible knows only one God. The Hebrew shema says it best: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4; see also Deuteronomy 4:35; 32:39; 2 Samuel 7:22; 1 Chronicles 17:20; Psalm 86:10; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6; 45:5, 14, 18; Mark 12:29; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Ephesians 4:6; 1 Timothy 2:5. While Christianity is a monotheistic faith and our God is numerically one, the best biblical evidence points to the fact that He is uniplural in His divine person. Uniplural suggests that God is one in essence but more than one in expression.

Artist portrayal of Elisha receiving mantle
(Gustave Doré, 19th century, Public Domain)

COGwriter

Several hours ago, I noticed the following headline from Gary Leonard at the anti-Church of God, Banned by HWA website:

Herbert Armstrong’s Own Words Make Mincemeat Of Bob Thiel And His Fake Prophet Status

Of course, the criteria for a prophet comes from the word of God, the Bible, and not statements from the late Pastor General of the old Radio/Worldwide Church of God, Herbert W. Armstrong.

That said, let’s look at what he said, some of what the Bible teaches, as well as comments from leaders that Herbert W. Armstrong had ordained, on the matter of prophets.

In a radio broadcast, the late Herbert W. Armstrong taught the following:

True prophet … Watch and see if it {what he says} comes to pass–and you can know that man has been called {by God} to be a prophet. (Armstrong HW. Proof of a True Prophet. World Tomorrow Radio program. HA535B.MP3)

Events confirming what the prophet said by one called of God is part of the proof. And that is consistent with Deuteronomy 18.

Notice something that Herbert W. Armstrong wrote:

Always the true prophets and ministers of God have stood almost alone and opposed by the overwhelming majority in Israel. That is Israel’s history of old. It is true today. (Armstrong HW. Why Russia Will Not Attack the United States, reprint 1980)

But the TRUE prophets of God have always put emphasis on the right CAUSE-on God’s WAY to the desired blessings.

Let me explain that. Let me make that PLAIN! This magazine deals with making truth PLAIN–understandable!

You may search the Bible from beginning to end. You’ll find the true prophets, apostles, ministers of God put first emphasis on the right CAUSE, not the effect. They proclaim THE WAY that leads to peace, happiness, security, and finally, eternal life. In Bible language, this means that God’s Word, and God’s true prophets and ministers put first emphasis on God’s LAW…God sends HIS prophets and ministers to proclaim the RIGHT WAY, to sh ow people that they are going the WRONG WAY, to cause them to turn around and get back on the RIGHT WAY through Jesus Christ by God’s free grace…

God’s true servants are not OF this world nor of its ways. (Armstrong HW. Personal from the Editor. Plain Truth, May 1966, pp. 2, 44-45)

Of course, there are false prophets who claim to teach the commandments, but usually reason around some of them. But true prophets of God most certainly do teach God’s law and way of life (see our free online booklet: The Ten Commandments: The Decalogue, Christianity, and the Beast).

Before going further, perhaps the following should be included as there has been some confusion regarding HWA and being a prophet. Here is some of what Herbert W. Armstrong wrote about that:

I have definitely NOT been called to be a PROPHET … Emphatically I am NOT a prophet, in the sense of one to whom God speaks specially and directly, revealing personally a future event to happen or new truth, or new and special instruction direct from God — separate from, and apart from what is contained in the Bible.  And I never have claimed to be. There is no such human prophet living today! (Armstrong H. Personal from the Editor, The 19 Year Time Cycles. The Good News of Tomorrow’s World. February, 1972, p. 1)

And I agree with Herbert W. Armstrong that he was not a prophet (though he had prophetic understanding in various areas) and no one, recognized of God, was anointed as a prophet back in 1972.

Now, yes, Herbert W. Armstrong at least once declared that there were no prophets in WCG and no doctrinal need for them. Furthermore, here is what he said in a Bible Study on 1 Corinthians on July 18, 1980:

THE CHURCH IS FOUNDED ON THE APOSTLES AND THE PROPHETS

Paul is speaking to the Church. Now the Church of God was raised up primarily for two purposes: that God could call to lead the Church, apostles, the Church is founded on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, the prophets of the Old Testament; because no prophet in the New Testament has anything to do with infusing doctrine into the Church or with an administrative position in the Work of the Church. No prophet had anything to do with any of that; so, the prophets mean, the prophets of the Old Testament. They did not preach to Israel. Israel rejected their writings, ancient Israel. The writings of the prophets, beginning with Isaiah and even other prophets – no you could say with Moses for that matter, and with David in the Psalms. All were for the New Testament Church, believe it or not, and yet today they want to say that we are a New Testament Church; and we don’t want anything to do with that Old Testament.

Let me tell you this is the book of God. Now the Old Testament Church couldn’t proclaim the gospel. The Old Testament Church did not have the Holy Spirit, that’s true; but the prophets did and they were writing for the doctrines of the Church and much of Church doctrine comes from the writings of the prophets; Christ being the chief cornerstone and the Head of the Church. Now just keep that in the background as we begin to read what Paul is writing to one of the Churches.

The bolded portion above is not biblically correct. The Apostle Paul was a prophet and so seemingly was the evangelist Timothy. So those prophets did have administrative as well as doctrinal responsibilities.

Furthermore, I did discuss Herbert W. Armstrong’s “no prophet” position with his long time aide, Aaron Dean (who HWA also ordained). Aaron Dean basically told me that Herbert W. Armstrong was annoyed by various ones who contacted him claiming to be a prophet and he wanted people to stop doing that. However, Aaron Dean also said that Herbert W. Armstrong was not intending to teach that there would be no more prophets or that they would not have a role in the church as we got closer to the end.

Of course, since the Two Witnesses prophesy (Revelation 11:3), it should be clear that Herbert W. Armstrong was not teaching that the people who would be the two witnesses could not have been alive in 1972 (especially since he felt that they would possibly fulfill their calling during his lifetime). Plus, as editor in chief of the publications of the old Radio and Worldwide Church of God, he did have items about prophets in the history of the Church of God published. Items that contradicted a statement he wrote about prophets not having administrative roles as Timothy did as did Melito of Sardis as did those called Paulicians that he had information published about.

Herbert W. Armstrong taught:

So God set HIS GOVERNMENT in His Church. And God’s government is authority from the TOP down. God the Father is in supreme authority over all. Next in authority under Him is Jesus Christ, living Head of the Church. On the human and earthly level, next in authority under Christ is His chosen apostle … (Armstrong HW. Seven Proofs Of The True Church – Proof No. 5-6. Good News, December 4, 1978)

Now after Jonah, and also after Moses, we come on down to the time when the children of Israel were governed through the prophets that God had called. (Armstrong HW. God’s Chosen Prophets. Telecast Date: June 10, 1978)

The Apostle Paul wrote:

28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets … (1 Corinthians 12:28)

In absence of a clear apostle, a prophet, particularly an evangelistic one, would be expected to lead the most faithful in the Church of God.

Herbert W. Armstrong, specifically, wrote:

“And He [Christ] gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, TILL we all come in the UNITY of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:11-13). The true Church of God has these offices, as the living Christ put them in His Church. (Armstrong HW. Seven Proofs Of The True Church – Proof No. 5-6. Good News, December 4, 1978)

Furthermore, notice a conversation Herbert W. Armstrong had with a WCG minister in late 1984 or 1985.

“Mr. Armstrong went on to say, ‘I have come to realize there will be an even greater work to follow—to go again, to “prophesy again” to all nations tongues and peoples (Rev. 10:11) before the work of the two witnesses—but with more power and with a stronger warning message. But that will be for others to do.’ He continued, ‘It will be a short work (Rom. 9:27-29), compared with the longer time to complete the work I was given, and it will be cut short. That’s when the Great Tribulation will begin, as will the work of the two witnesses. These will last for three and one-half years, at the end of which Christ will return in glory.’” (Schurter D. “The Greatest Work Lies JUST Ahead…” conversation with Herbert W. Armstrong 1984/1985 as stated in RCG letter of May 31, 2013)

So, Herbert W. Armstrong felt that there would be prophecy BEFORE the two witnesses were given power, hence the need for one or more prophets.

The New Testament (e.g. Acts 2, 1 Corinthians 14, Revelation 11) makes it clear that there would be prophets in the latter days.

Notice something else from the late Herbert W. Armstrong:

PERSECUTORS HAVE CALLED me a “false prophet.” Now how would you KNOW whether the accusation IS true- or false?…

Actually, it probably is not very important to you to know whether my persecutors are right or wrong, when they call me dirty names, hurl epithets, resort to innuendo, impute sinister motives, strive to discredit, attempt character assassination. What is important to YOU is whether what you read in The PLAIN TRUTH really is the truth – whether what you hear over The WORLD TOMORROW broadcast is true- not whether I , as an individual, am true or false.

I think our readers know by now that we always say: ” DON’ T believe what we say because you believe in us.” We say ” Listen with open mind, without prejudice, then CHECK UP in your own Bible-prove whether it is true, and BELIEVE what you find proved!” I don’t seek to induce people to believe in ME- I seek to lead them to believe in JESUS CHRIST! (Armstrong HW. Personal from the Editor. Plain Truth, May 1966, pp. 2)

I have never been a false prophet and urge all to check out what I have taught with the Bible.

Because I am an imperfect human being and one may not agree with all of my views does NOT make me a false prophet.

Notice further that Herbert W. Armstrong also stated:

Joel 2:28-29 And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: (29) And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

So there is a time coming when God will start pouring out His spirit on human beings. … Day of Pentecost, 3000 were baptized. Peter preached a sermon. They were pricked in their hearts. God began to draw them. God was now… Remember He said, “I will pour out of my spirit on all flesh.” All right, there’s a duality of that. (Armstrong HW. Building The Temple. Sermon, February 14, 1981)

Yes, there was a duality to what Peter preached in Acts 2–and that duality is for our current time.

While Herbert W. Armstrong was alive, the Personal Correspondence Department in the old WCG sent out a letter on dreams and stated the Bible showed that future dreams from God to His people were expected.

It then had a date change added to it and here is a quote from that one:

Thank you for your question concerning visions or dreams. The Bible reveals that in times past servants of God were given visions and dreams for specific reasons and/or to convey special messages. … God has used this means of communication in the past and will do so again (Acts 2:17; Joel 2:28) (L052 Worldwide Church of God, 1989)

As the WCG did not publicly acknowledge any such dreams after that letter was sent, the interpretation must be that God would later use dreams (it should be mentioned that the original date of L052 was prior to 1986–hence it was not a change by the Tkach Administration).

That said, Herbert W. Armstrong wrote a lot–some of it contradictory–so looking at the overall intent of his writings and teaching is more important than taking one statement as his total view. Plus, of course, the most important criteria is the Bible–and the Bible clearly teaches that there will be prophets in the last days–and not just the two witnesses per Acts 2.

As far as the witnesses go, notice some items he had published:

But who — or what — are the two witnesses? Verse 4 of Revelation 11 reveals, “These ARE the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.” These are symbols. The prophet Zechariah had a vision of these two mysterious olive trees. But he was confused — perplexed. He asked, “What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?” The angel answered, “Knowest thou not what these be? These are the TWO ANOINTED ONES, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth” (Zech. 4:11-14). Now let’s put these explanations together. First, these two witnesses prophesy or preach (Rev. 11:3, 6 and 10). Their prophesying lasts for three and one-half years. They are “anointed ones” — that is, they have been anointed by the Holy Spirit of God (II Cor. 1:21-22; I John 2:20, 27). Therefore, they are God’s PROPHETS — two prophets to arise and to prophesy in the streets of Jerusalem! (Plain Truth, August 1965)

WHAT LIES AHEAD, vital to us in God’s Church, in the next very few years? Bible prophecy does not pinpoint precise dates—or even the precise year—of forecasted events. … But there is an important prophecy in Revelation 10. The apostle John saw, in a vision, an angel come with his hand lifted to heaven, saying, “There should be delay no longer” (verse 6). Then a voice from heaven told John to take and open a very small book in the hand of the angel, and eat it. In his mouth it was sweet as honey, but in his stomach very bitter. Then the voice said to John, “Thou must prophesy [preach or announce] again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, AND KINGS” (verse 11, Authorized Version). Now what is the TIME setting of this prophecy? It is sometime PRIOR to the sounding of the seventh trumpet, at which time Christ shall come. That is clear in verse 7. Also it is followed immediately by the 3 1/2-year mission of the two witnesses. Their 3 1/2 years BEGIN with the Great Tribulation. So the TIME of this prophecy is just shortly before the work of the Philadelphia church is finished. (Armstrong HW. What Lies Ahead? Good News, January 1984)

So, Herbert W. Armstrong felt that the two witnesses, who will be prophets, were alive in 1984, and presumably, one or more was an adult by then.

Getting back to Herbert W. Armstrong, he also wrote:

The Hebrew word for prophet, navi, means “one who announces or brings a message from God.” The word “prophet” in the English language means essentially the same thing — “one who speaks by divine inspiration as the interpreter or spokesman of God,” whether it be a message of duty and warning, or a prediction of future events.

A prophet is one who speaks for God; hence, the prefix pro (from the Greek language — from which our word prophet is derived) which means “for” and “before.”…

The prophets were not a special hierarchy, a guild, or a certain “class” of men! Many of them were chosen from various of the twelve tribes of Israel, and, unlike those of the tribe of Levi, were not born into their office. They were princes, sheepherders, farmers, fishermen, and priests. They came from many different tribes, and God called them at many different times…

Amos 3:7: “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth His secret unto his servants the prophets.”

Remember, ONLY God’s true servants have come to properly understand prophecy. Others try — by the thousands of hours of preaching and by the tons of printed material. But all for nothing.

God’s true disciples in this age will be shown “the things to come” by God’s Holy Spirit (John 16:13) — given to them because they believe in, preach and obey God (Acts 5:32). These individuals have a “good understanding” because they keep God’s Commandments to DO them (Psalm 111:10; Rev. 22:7,14). Wherever you can find a “Work of God” that fulfills these conditions — which keeps God’s Commandments — there you will also find God revealing His secrets — which means opening up Bible prophecies for the practical understanding of future events. (Armstrong HW. How to Understand Prophecy. Ambassador College, 1973, pp. 3,4,25)

It also needs to be understood that prophets do not have to perform public miracles to be genuine. John the Baptist was a prophet according to Jesus (Matthew 11:7-10), but he is not recorded as performing any public miracles. Actually, the Bible records, “John did no miracle” (John 10:41, KJV). Jesus told the Pharisees that an adulterous generation sought signs, beyond prophetic accuracy (Matthew 12:38-40) and obedience to God (cf. Deuteronomy 13:1-4).

Let me add that both the Bible and writings published by the old Radio Church of God show that prophets can also have administrative roles (e.g. see previous quote from Meredith RC. How Church Government Really WORKS. Good News, March 1964, pp. 4-5).

While the Book of Acts mentions various prophets (e.g. Acts 21:10) and even prophetesses (Acts 21:8-9), can we find in church history if there were any prophets after the New Testament was finished?

Yes.

In a document believed to be put together by Church of God leaders in Smyrna in around 158 A.D., called the The Martyrdom of Polycarp, is the following:

16:2 In the number of these was this man, the glorious martyr Polycarp, who was found an apostolic and prophetic teacher in our own time, a bishop of the holy Church which is in Smyrna. For every word which he uttered from his mouth was accomplished and will be accomplished. (The Martyrdom of Polycarp. In: Holmes M. The Apostolic Fathers–Greek Text and English Translations, 3rd printing 2004, pp 222-249)

It appears that “prophet” was one of Polycarp’s roles. The fact that he was a traveling prophetic teacher (he visited Rome as well as parts of Asia Minor) indicates he was a prophetic evangelist–Polycarp was both a prophet and overseer. And he looks to be the “one man” God had lead the true Church for many years.

Herbert W. Armstrong endorsed Polycarp as a Church of God leader:

It is significant that after his release John trained Polycarp elder of Smyrna, a city near Ephesus in the province of Asia. … At neighboring Smyrna, Polycarp presided over the Church of God for half a century after John’s death. Polycarp stood up boldly for the truth while many fell away and began having fellowship with the Catholic bishops of Rome. History relates that following the example of Peter, Paul and John, Polycarp wrote many letters to congregations and individuals, though all these have perished, save one in an edited version. (Armstrong HW. The Church They Couldn’t Destroy. Good News, December 1981)

The letter titled The Martyrdom of Polycarp is basically all about the killing of Polycarp, but also states:

The church of God which sojourns at Smyrna to the Church of God which sojourns in Philomelium and to all the congregations of the Holy and Catholic Church in every place … the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. (The Smyrnaeans. The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna Concerning the Martyrdom of the Holy Polycarp, 0:1, 16.2. In Ante-Nicene Fathers by Roberts and Donaldson, Volume 4, 1885. Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody (MA), printing 1999, p. 42)

Since the old WCG acknowledged Polycarp and the validity of the The Martyrdom of Polycarp , that church acknowledged he was a prophetic teacher.

The Roman Catholic saint Jerome reported that Tertullian reported that in the second century, Christians considered Church of God leader Melito of Sardis as a prophet. Tertullian, related to Melito from Jerome, wrote:

Melito of Asia, bishop of Sardis … he was considered a prophet by many of us. (Jerome. De Viris Illustribus (On Illustrious Men), Chapter 24. Translated by Ernest Cushing Richardson. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. 3. Edited by Philip Schaff and Henry Wace. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1892.)

Herbert W. Armstrong wrote that Melito, along with, Polycarp, was one of the “of the true Christians observing Passover on the 14th of Nisan, first month of the Sacred Calendar” (Armstrong HW. The Plain Truth About Easter. WCG booklet, 1973).

Melito was the “one man” who was leading the Church of God for a time and he was an overseer (bishop) and prophet.

Did you know that he wrote about prophets?

Back in 2006/2007, I translated Melito’s Greek text from H. Paulsen Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1.5. Und Die, commonly referred to as Melito’s On the Prophets. I submitted the following as to support a koine Greek class I took as a rough translation of the first part of it:

You give the gift of prophecy through your spirit in your way … (Melito, On the Prophets. Translated by Bob Thiel from the Greek from the H. Paulsen Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1.5. Und Die)

Melito was a second century Church of God leader who Christians considered to be a prophet. Since Melito was considered as a prophet, he may have written that first line to remind his critics and supporters that God decides how to give the gift of prophecy, not humans. By the way, note that I translated and submitted this well before Dr. Meredith told me in October of 2008 that God may consider me to be a prophet as well as years before I had the double-portion anointing. As COG leader Melito wrote, God gives the gift of prophecy HIS way which often involves dreams per Numbers 12:5-6 (see also Dreams, the Bible, the Radio Church of God, and the Continuing Church of God).

Sadly, many people think God needs to give the gift of prophecy according to THEIR (Laos) Way/Judgement (Dike) (Laodicea).

It is reported that the ‘Nazarenes’ of the fifth century had at least one prophet:

In his Commentary on Isaiah Jerome quotes some fragments from an exegetical work by an unknown Nazoraean author which he did not, however, take directly from one of their writings, but probably from Apollinaris’s commentary on the same prophet. (Skarsaune O, Hvalvik R, editors. Jewish Believers in Jesus: The Early Centuries. © 2007 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., p. 473)

The old Radio/Worldwide Church of God taught that these Nazarenes were COG Christians (Hoeh H. A True History of the True Church. RCG, 1959).

Notice something else from the old Radio Church of God:

Paulician Church Government

The Paulicians claimed to be THE “holy universal and apostolic church” founded by Jesus Christ and his apostles. Of the false churches, they would say: “We do not belong to these, for they have long ago broken connection with the church.”

They taught that the Church is not a building, not just an organization, but an organism — the body of truly converted baptized persons, which has continued unbroken with the apostolic traditions from its beginning. Jesus Christ was and is the HEAD of that Church.

Paulicians also taught that the Scripture is for the layman as much as for the minister. They continually urged the people to check the Scriptures for themselves, and accused the priests of hiding the Scriptures in order to deprive the people of the truth and of making monetary profit in addition by dispensing a SUPPOSED word of God in its place. …

Four of their greatest leaders, the Paulicians called APOSTLES and PROPHETS. …

Any greatness is not of the man, but of the OFFICE. No man is qualified for it but through the Holy Spirit.

Though you might not respect the MAN, YOU had BETTER respect that OFFICE!

THAT office is of God. (Lesson 50 – I Will Build My Church, Part 2. 58 Lesson: Ambassador College Bible Correspondence Course, 1965)

The New Testament endorsed prophets, and the old Radio Church of God taught that they existed beyond New Testament times.

The ‘Paulicians’ were part of the Smyrna Church Era and the Pergamos Church Era.

And, it should be pointed out that a Worldwide Church of God evangelist taught that the Thyatira Church Era had a “school of the prophets” in a paper that was approved by the college of that church (Blackwell D. A HANDBOOK OF CHURCH HISTORY. A Thesis Presented to the Faculty of the Ambassador College Graduate School of Theology, April 1973, pp. 28, 155).

Notice also:

Prophet Inspired by God

From the Catholic Encyclopedia, article Arnold of Brescia:

They looked on him as a prophet inspired by God.

Why would they do that if he were a politician, trying certainly to establish democratic government in pagan Rome? That disagrees with what else they were trying to get across. They [these people in this country who followed him] looked on him as a prophet inspired of God. …

Henry of Lausanne, a monk of Cluny … when he came into contact with Peter De Bruy, he quit using a cross. …They said he was endowed with a spirit of prophecy. …
The church of the Waldenses has inscribed the name of Arnold as in her spiritual genealogy. (Blackwell D. A HANDBOOK OF CHURCH HISTORY. A Thesis Presented to the Faculty of the Ambassador College Graduate School of Theology, April 1973, pp. 87,103)

What about the Sardis Church era? Notice something written by a then WCG evangelist:

German Anabaptists … Carlstadt, a Sabbath keeper, said. Another prevailing feature of their system was a belief in immediate or prophetic inspiration, which if it did not supercede the written word, assimilated them to its author. Notice even there, the test of a prophet was the written word! (Blackwell D. A HANDBOOK OF CHURCH HISTORY. A Thesis Presented to the Faculty of the Ambassador College Graduate School of Theology, April 1973, pp. 166, 167)

The old Radio Church of God taught:

I Corinthians 12: … prophets … Christ is not placing many in this office. (Meredith RC. How Church Government Really WORKS. Good News, March 1964, pp. 4-5)

Not MANY does not and cannot mean NONE in the 21st century!

Furthermore, the old WCG/RCG taught about a coming Elijah in accordance with the following:

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. (Malachi 4:5)

It can thus be concluded, that the Philadelphia Church Era also taught about at least one coming prophet.

So, we see that the old Radio/Worldwide Church of God taught that there were prophets throughout the church eras (including people like the Apostle John in the Ephesus Church Era).

Back in 1986, then WCG evangelist that Herbert W. Armstrong ordained, L. Leroy Neff (now deceased), wrote a lot about how to identify a true prophet as well as what is not required:

“How can you tell the impostor from the true servant of God? The answer will probably be quite surprising to many people because they are using an unscriptural basis for evaluation” …

What are the credentials?

Some people would look to a prophet’s or minister’s credentials. He would be accepted if he were educated at a recognized theological institution. Others would look for a minister’s popularity, his charisma, his personality or his speaking ability.

But the Scriptures show that God’s servants have sometimes not had these qualities or credentials. They were not graduates of the recognized theological institutions of their day. Moses had trouble speaking in public (Exodus 4: 10). Jeremiah was “too young” (Jeremiah 1:6). Paul lacked certain speech abilities (I Corinthians 2: 1, II Corinthians 10:10). Even Jesus Himself had no outstanding personal characteristics that set Him apart from others, as the religious leaders had to pay Judas to point Him (Matthew 26:47-49).

Some would expect to find a true minister or prophet in a large and beautiful church building. Yet, during the history of the early Church, there is no mention of church buildings. Instead we read that the Church was not a building at all, but the people who were called out of this world to become the Church. The people (the Church) met in various buildings, sometimes in Church members’ homes (Romans 16:5, I Corinthians 16:19, Philemon 2). Paul preached for two years while under house arrest in rented facilities. He probably had both living quarters and a meeting hall of some kind (Acts 28:30-31).

Jesus said His followers would not be many in number, but would be comparatively few: “Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom” (Luke 12:32). (Neff LL. Imposter–or–True Prophet — Which? Good News, December 1986, pp. 10-11)

A true prophet would not need to be from a major theological institution, have the most magnanimous personality, or have a large or impressive Church, but would be the type willing to meet in members’ homes. He also does not have to have had a ministerial background. Or does the prophet even, like apparently the Apostle Paul per 2 Corinthians 10:10 and 11:6 or Moses per Exodus 4:10 or Jeremiah per Jeremiah 1:6, need to be a great speaker. God chooses who His prophets are.

Leroy Neff wrote not to disqualify a prophet if some predictions take a long time to happen:

Then there is the prophet or minister who says something will come to pass and it apparently does not. Such a one would certainly be labeled false by most observers. This is one reason, but not the only reason, why almost all of God’s prophets throughout history have been labeled by many as false!

Consider such men as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel. They sometimes prophesied for many years, and yet what they said would happen did not come to pass immediately. Why didn’t these prophecies come to pass?

The answer was that it was not yet God’s time for their predictions to come to pass. At the proper time, sometimes years or decades later, the prophecies were fulfilled. And in some cases, what they prophesied has not yet come to pass even in our day, but will be fulfilled in God’s time. There is a time, after ample warning, when God will finally say, “None of My words will be postponed any more” (Ezekiel 12:28).

There are other examples where God’s true servants expected certain events to occur in their lifetimes. During his earlier ministry, the apostle Paul apparently expected Christ to return during his life (I Thessalonians 4:17, I Corinthians 15:51). Later, he realized that it would not occur until later (II Timothy 4:6- 8) . Paul was criticized and labeled “false” by accusers, but the members of God’s Church knew he was a true servant of God. (Imposter–or–True Prophet — Which? Good News, December 1986, p. 11)

It also should be noted that while the Apostle Paul considered himself to be a prophet, not all of his speculative predictions were accurate. He once claimed:

10 I perceive that this voyage will end with disaster and much loss, not only of the cargo and ship, but also our lives (Acts 27:10).

And while his speculation was mostly accurate, it was not completely accurate, as there was no loss of lives. His position became completely accurate when he claimed to speak as God led him as opposed to his perceptions:

21 Men, you should have listened to me, and not have sailed from Crete and incurred this disaster and loss. 22 And now I urge you to take heart, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve, 24 saying, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul; you must be brought before Caesar; and indeed God has granted you all those who sail with you.’ 25 Therefore take heart, men, for I believe God that it will be just as it was told me. (Acts 27:21-25)

So, delays and speculations do not make one a false prophet. Stumbling does not make a leader false either, as according to the Apostle James:

1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. (James 3:1-2)

There is a difference between stumbling and being a false leader.

A leader is biblically and clearly a false prophet when one claims to speak on God’s behalf and gives a prophecy that does not happen:

21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ — 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deuteronomy 18:21)

(The above suggests that if God’s prophets make statements that they do not claim to be from the Lord, and are in error, perhaps like what they think someone will do, that God is saying that personal comments from prophets are not inspired and not the same as false statements from those while claiming to speak in the name of the Lord.)

Getting back to Leroy Neff, he continued by asking and providing insight into an interesting question:

Would Christians reject Christ?

If Jesus Christ were to come again in our day, live the same way and teach the same message He did almost 2,000 years ago, many of His “followers” of today would reject Him as false.

Why? Because He would not live the same kind of life they live. He would not observe the same religious days they observe. He would · not eat many of the foods they eat. His teachings about and from the Old Testament would be considered Jewish and unchristian by some who reject that part of Holy Scripture. He would not fit the mold of what many consider to be a true Christian.

In short, they would reject Him as a heretic and the leader of a new sect, just as some labeled his servant Paul “a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes” (Acts 24:5) . Undoubtedly some would call His religion a cult, as some label His true religion today. (Imposter–or–True Prophet — Which? Good News, December 1986, pp. 11-12)

Truly, most people, even in the COGs, will not listen to a true prophet of God in this age. And, even when God grants power to His two witnesses, most in the world will not only not listen to them, they will be deceived enough to support an army that will fight against the returning Jesus Christ (Revelation 16:13-14; 19:11-19)!

How would one recognize a true prophet? Leroy Neff continued with:

So far we have mostly seen how not to recognize a true prophet. How, then, can you tell a true prophet from a false one? That is the important question we must now answer from the Scriptures, and not from human reason…

Paul warned the Corinthians: “But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it” (II Corinthians 11:3-4).

The New International Version translates the last phrase, “You put up with it easily enough.”

We read elsewhere that. Jesus Christ is God. This passage should make it plain that a minister or prophet can preach Christ, but it can be a different Christ – a different God than the one of the Bible.

How can this be? If the message is different from that of the Jesus Christ of Scripture, and different from that of the original apostles, then the minister or prophet is preaching how to “go after other gods which you have not known.” It is therefore vitally necessary that we prove which ministers preach Christ’s same Gospel and which preach a different gospel and a different message.

Isaiah makes it clear

“To the law and to the testimony!” proclaims Isaiah 8:20. “If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”

This expands on what we saw previously. If a prophet or minister does not speak according to God’s Word, according to His law and His testimony, there is no light in him, or, in other words, no truth in him. His message is false. Many claiming to represent God try to “do away” with God’s laws and commandments. They only accept a part of God’s Word and reject the rest…

A true prophet or servant of God will speak according to God’s law. He will speak according to God’s commandments. His way of life will be that of a commandment keeper, not a commandment breaker. He will not just be preaching a gospel about Christ, but he will be preaching the same Gospel that Christ and the original apostles preached – the good news of the coming Kingdom of God on earth.

That is the way to determine who are impostors and who are God’s true prophets, ministers and teachers. (Imposter–or–True Prophet — Which? Good News, December 1986, p. 12)

A true prophet is one called of God, teaches the same gospel that Jesus taught, keeps the commandments of God, AND has predictions that come to pass. Jesus (Mark 1:14) and Paul (Acts 28:30-31) taught the gospel of the kingdom of God (see also The Gospel of the Kingdom of God). Even if one appears to be “an angel from heaven,” unless the true gospel is being taught, Paul says that such a one should be “accursed” (Galatians 1:9) (see also Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Apparitions).

Here is in a Plain Truth question and answer article that had no listed author, when L. Leroy Neff was listed as a contributing editor of that edition on page 2:

In the Bible I read where the prophet whose prophecies come true is a prophet of God_ How else can we know if a person is a prophet of God?-A reader from North Carolina...

Just what is the test of a prophet of God? How does one know the difference between one who speaks with divine authority and someone who utters prognostications out of his, or her, own mind?

People assume-as has our reader from North Carolina-that anyone whose predictions come true must be a messenger of God. That is not what your Bible says! Open your Bible and see what it does say:

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass” does that prove the person is sent by God? Suppose the person whose predictions came true also says to disobey the plain statements of your Bible–or to believe what the Bible does not teach-what should you do? Read God’s answer–out of your own Bible: “Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul” (Deut. 13:1-3).

Here is the true test of a servant of God-he tells the people to obey the Word of God. God’s servant will tell them to believe exactly what the Bible says. The Bible commands us to LOVE GOD. . . . How do you love God? By keeping His commandments! “If ye love me, keep my commandments,” so says John 14:15 in your Bible. Further: “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2 :4).

If one is against the commandments of God, he is not of God. It is as simple as that.

God’s servants may foretell the future. But that is not the proof that they are God’s servants. Sometimes even Satan’s servants predict the future-as much as Almighty God allows. The witch of Endor predicted the fate of King Saul. This witch communicated with a demon spirit-a fallen angel which already knew that Saul was to die in the coming battle with the Philistines. (I Sam. 28:7-20.)

In the New Testament Book of Acts, we read of a woman who had a familiar spirit, and who revealed secrets and foretold the future. The Apostle Paul ordered the demon out of the woman (Acts 16:16-18). Here, then, is an example of where “occult power” comes from. Demons-fallen angels are responsible for many of the visions, prognostications, and revelations of crystal-ball gazers and mediums. Those people need not wonder where they get such revelations. The Bible tells them. (The Bible Answers Short Questions from our Readers. Plain Truth. September 1965, pp. 41,48)

The above confirms much of what the Bible and others in the Churches of God have said.

Notice one other trait of a true New Testament prophet from the 1965 Good News magazine:

Whenever a man is ordained to an office of greater service in God’s Work hands are laid on him. In the ordination ceremony God’s ministers lay their hands on those being ordained, and ask Almighty God-the Head of this Church-to continue to work in their lives…

The laying on of hands serves the purpose of setting apart anyone or anything in God’s sight, for a SPECIAL USE OR PURPOSE…

God gives special gifts-special powers of His Spirit-to those who are set apart by the laying on of hands. Remember that it was by the laying on of hands that Timothy received the added ability, called “prophecy” by the King James translators…(I Tim. 4:14 and II Tim. 1:6)…

This spiritual gift of inspired preaching was conferred to Timothy by the laying on of hands…

This proof-in-action of your willingness to submit to God’s human representative-God’s minister -for anointing and the laying on of hands is “acting out” your willingness to accept the spiritual Government of Almighty God Himself over your physical life (Ellis, William H. Why We Have the Laying on of Hands Ceremony. Good News. April-May 1965, pp. 11, 14,15)

A true prophet is under God’s authority. A true New Testament prophet has had hands laid upon him/her and received special anointing under God’s inspiration. You can not anoint yourself nor come up with doctrine that contradicts the Bible (cf. Revelation 22:18-19) like at least three self-declared, supposed, COG “prophets” (Gerald Flurry, William Dankenbring, and Ronald Weinland) and false predictors (like Harold Camping) have falsely done. God’s prophets are true to the Bible–“Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35).

It should be understood that although some of the prophets in the Hebrew scriptures did miracles, and some of the apostles in the Greek scriptures were also prophets, not all ever did (e.g. John 10:41).

But God sometimes does things more quietly.

For example, although Elijah was looking for some dramatic sign (1 Kings 19:11-13), instead God used ”a still small voice” (1 Kings 19:12). Although Elijah accepted that God worked that way (1 Kings 19:13-18), most of the Laodiceans do not. Dreams would be consistent with a “still small voice.”

Dr. R.C. Meredith, who was ordained an evangelist by Herbert W. Armstrong, during the old Radio Church of God days wrote (bolding mine):

The true Church of God is the ONLY Church which directly follows not only the form of government but employs the very titles which God Himself inspired as the designations for His ministers of various ranks and functions. These titles are partially included in the various spiritual gifts mentioned in I Corinthians 12: “And GOD hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues” (Verse 28) … Those mentioned first are apostles…

Next are mentioned “prophets.” These can be either men or women and were used to foretell future events by special and personal revelation from God (Acts 11:27-30; 21:9-10). There is no example of them having any administrative authority over other ministers in the Church unless they were also apostles or evangelists. Also, from the later chapters of Acts and the following centuries of true Church history, it would seem that their function has diminished and that Christ is not placing many in this office since the basic revelation of the Bible is now complete.

Next in authority under the apostles were the evangelists. Originally, they included such men as Timothy, Titus, Epaphroditus, Silas and others who assisted the apostles in directing the work of the ministry. (Meredith RC. How Church Government Really WORKS. Good News, March 1964, pp. 4-5)

So according to the writings of Dr. Meredith, prophets who also do the work of an evangelist, “prophetic evangelists” or “evangelistic prophets,” can have administrative authority. And that is so (other prophets in New Testament and later times probably also had some type of administrative authority as well). And not placing MANY in that role does not mean that CHRIST is not placing any.

Dr. Meredith also mentioned a group that he called local prophets (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:29-32):

As God’s Church in this age has GROWN over the past thirty years in this era, Christ has filled ALL of the ministerial ranks outlined in Ephesians 4 except that of the local “prophets”- who were not much in evidence toward the latter part of the Biblical history and after the Bible was written. (Meredith RC. How Church Government Really WORKS. Good News, March 1964, pp. 6,24)

And, that combined with those like the Apostle John, show that there were apparently at least three kinds. Yet, many today in the COG do not seem to realize this. They may wish to be like the Bereans and “searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so” (Acts 17:11).

Prophets clearly are an office of the COG. Is it not possible that God has raised up at least one now in the 21st century?

Interestingly, Roderick Meredith once wrote:

In II Kings 2:8-15, we find the account where the great prophet Elijah was taken up into heaven — turning his office and mantle over to Elisha. Read this account carefully. Notice that Elisha expected to carryon in the power of God as had Elijah. For he asked for a “double portion” of Elijah’s spirit to be upon him. As Elijah ascended up to heaven, his mantle fell on Elisha. …

Today, you should personally awake to the fact that the mantle and power of Elijah will be manifested among God’s true servants in this age.

For as John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:17), so God says of our day: “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and. dreadful day of the Lord: and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse” (Malachi 4:5-6).

This basic but little understood prophecy obviously refers to a man or work preparing the way for Christ’s Second Coming … a crusade to restore the knowledge of God’s TRUTH to man before he blows himself off this planet!(Meredith RC. Tapping Your INNER POWERS Is Not Enough. Plain Truth, October-November 1979)

Unlike Herbert W. Armstrong who restored truths to the Philadelphia era, and Bob Thiel who added more details to those truths, etc. Dr. Meredith did not do that. Nor did he fulfill the prophetic office. Nor has anyone currently in LCG done so. Yet, Dr. Meredith wrote that someone had to.

• On October 3, 2008, Dr. Meredith (then Presiding Evangelist of the Living Church of God) called me and said to me, “God may consider you to be a prophet.”  It was Dr. Meredith who first brought up the topic about Bob Thiel being a prophet.
• Dr. Meredith must have brought it up again as an email I sent him on November 16, 2008 stated, “Now, you have mentioned to me a couple of times that God may regard me as a prophet. And, of course, it was you and not I that first brought that subject up.”
• In late January/early February 2009, Dr. Meredith told me over the telephone that if he (Dr. Meredith) raised his title to the office of apostle, he was considering ordaining me (Bob Thiel) as a prophet. He apparently was unwilling to do the ordination without him being above me. But, of course, his position should not have been relevant–but it was to him.
• On February 4, 2009, Dr. Meredith told me over the telephone, “You have an in-depth understanding of prophecy and details of church history. You could be a prophet–that may be what God will have you do.” He also asked me to pray then that he would live another 7-15 years then–I prayed and he did (he died on May 18, 2017–just a little over 8 years later).
• In the Summer of 2009, Dibar Apartian told me that Dr. Meredith had been stating in top level meetings that Bob Thiel may be a prophet. Around this time, I had a prophetic dream related to Dr. Meredith (see also Dreams, the Bible, the Radio Church of God, and the Continuing Church of God).

As far as Dibar Apartian goes, on October 14, 2008, at the Feast of Tabernacles in Evian, France in 2008, evangeslist Dibar Apartian discussed the Dr. Meredith’s comments about me possibly being a prophet. On the morning of October 16, 2008, Dibar Apartian specifically told me that he suspected that I “was the one,” meaning the one to lead the work and possess the Philadelphian mantle in the end. Now, that came from Dibar Apartian, not me–he provided further confirmation of that in conversations in 2009 and 2010. Dibar Apartian also had major problems with LCG and started to be more vocal about them before his death in 2010.

Related also to the Living Church of God,

• On August 26, 2012, LCG evangelist Dr. D. Winnail told Bob Thiel, “We all think that you might be a prophet.”
• In order in order to determine who “We all” was, on September 7, 2012, I asked if this was a reference to all three of the LCG Charlotte-based evangelists and Dr. Winnail concurred.
• On January 7, 2013, which is AFTER I left LCG, Dr. Douglas Winnail sent me an email, which included the statement, “we made comments to you  that “you may be a prophet.””
• On February 20, 2013 emailed me hoping I would come back. The next day, after I saw that email, I declined and stated: “As far as me and the Living Church of God, there would have to be major specific changes for me to be able to come back. At this stage, without changes, I do not believe that LCG can possibly be the group that God will use to complete the final phase of the work. I have totally committed myself to support the Philadelphian end time work of God, which is why, to a great degree because of steps you did and did not take, the Continuing Church of God (CCOG) had to be formed. You may be interested to know that I did not want to be in the position that I am now in. … My attempts in 2012 to prevent the current situation were not properly reciprocated by you. Anyway, I continue to pray for you, your wife, and others in LCG pretty much daily. “

Anyway, no, HWA’s word do not make mincemeat of my prophetic role. Herbert W. Armstrong believed that there would be future prophets, Aaron Dean confirmed that, Roderick C. Meredith said that I might be one, and that had the concurrence of Richard Ames (who HWA ordained) and Dr. Douglas Winnail (who had some type of ordination when HWA was alive).

Despite improper accusations from various ones on the internet that I am some type of a false prophet, to the best of my knowledge I have never once posted a false prediction (and I do try to indicate when something is speculation), nor do those critics actually post any “false” predictions that I supposedly made and provide proof that even one was false. Thus, those who love the truth will not listen to their false dismissals.

Who determines who will be a prophet?

Notice what the the COG leader known as the Apostle Paul wrote:

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the benefit of all. 8 For to one, a word of wisdom is given by the Spirit; and to another, a word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 And to a different one, faith by the same Spirit; and to another, gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10. And to another, the working of miracles; and to another, prophecy; and to another, discerning of spirits; and to a different one, various languages; and to another, the interpretation of languages. 11 But the one and the same Spirit is operating in all these things, dividing separately to each one as God Himself desires. (1 Corinthians 12:7-11, AFV)

28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? (1 Corinthians 12:28-29)

As the above show, one becomes a prophet by God’s appointing.

Yet, it seems that often those in the Church of God (as well as those out of it) believe that God has to do things their way, as opposed to His, when certain leaders are chosen.

Note: All readers with some type of a Worldwide Church of God (WCG) connection should consider that although the late Joseph Tkach was specifically and publicly chosen to lead the old WCG, that he obviously was NOT God’s choice for a faithful leader–God used other methods then and has also used a method different than most would have expected for identifying one He has chosen.

Normally a Christian becomes more formally recognized as a prophet from the laying on of hands by one or more who has been properly ordained into Christ’s ministry who have been inspired by God (2 Timothy 1:6; Hebrews 6:2).

This is also consistent with the following from the Apostle Paul:

14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership. (1 Timothy 4:14, NKJV)

14 Do not be careless about the gifts with which you are endowed, which were conferred on you through a divine revelation when the hands of the elders were placed upon you. (1 Timothy 4:14, Weymouth)

14 Make use of that grace in you, which was given to you by the word of the prophets, when the rulers of the church put their hands on you. (1 Timothy 4:14, BBE)

6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. (2 Timothy 1:6, NKJV)

The Radio Church of God reported:

God gives special gifts — special powers of His Spirit — to those who are set apart by the laying on of hands. Remember that it was by the laying on of hands that Timothy received the added ability, called “prophecy” by the King James translators. (Ellis WH. Why We Have the Laying on of Hands Ceremony. Good News Magazine April-May 1965)

The Strong’s Concordance number 4394 for the Greek word transliterated in English as ‘profeetias’ is used 19 times in the New Testament, and while it includes ‘inspired speaking’ it really is a reference to prophecy. Timothy was an evangelist and prophet.

Furthermore, I did not anoint myself– LCG minister Gaylyn Bonjour anointed me with oil and prayed I would receive a double-portion of God’s Spirit (which he said was reminiscent of the passing of the mantle)–hence I am not self-ordained, but am God-ordained. Yet sadly, some so misunderstand the role of prophets in the New Testament that they would rather believe the lies about me than face the truth that the actual facts reveal. Elisha then received a “double-portion” (“two-portion” literally) of the gift that God had given Elijah (2 Kings 2:9-13). Elisha picked up the mantle of Elijah (2 Kings 2:13) which Elijah dropped and God wanted him to have (1 Kings 19:16-19), as he replaced Elijah as God’s top ecclesiastical authority on earth (cf. 1 Kings 19:16). Yet, for several years after picked Elisha up the mantle that Elijah dropped, Elijah was still alive. While many outside of the genuine Church of God seem to doubt this, this is verified by 2 Chronicles 21:5, 12-15 (see also Elijah: Past and Prophesied).

First Kings shows a series of dramatic things occurring, but that God was not speaking thru them, instead the Bible shows something else:

11 Then He said, “Go out, and stand on the mountain before the Lord.” And behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake; 12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice. (1 Kings 19:11-12)

But many have false persuaded themselves that they need a massive miracle or to be moved emotionally by a charismatic speaker. But that is not normally how God works.

If you go to the Old Testament, and read about the prophets, very few actually displayed any dramatic miracles. Most simply wrote and preached a few things.

Have you considered whether you have have heeded any without dramatic miracles back in Old Testament times?

Jesus pointed to religious leaders who THOUGHT they would have heeded, but He knew that they would not have (Matthew 23:29-32).

If YOU think you are different than them, can you accept what the word of God says about how God appoints prophets:

5 Then the Lord came down in the pillar of cloud and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam. And they both went forward. 6 Then He said,

“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream. (Numbers 12:5-6)

Notice that the above says that God’s plan is that He will speak to His prophets in a dream. That is a major way that God appoints prophets. God does not say to rely on an organization to declare one.

Interestingly, the old Radio and Worldwide Church of God taught that God used dreams and would in the last days (see Dreams, the Bible, the Radio Church of God, and the Continuing Church of God), yet most in the COGs today seem not to accept that.

Jesus, the ultimate Church of God leader, taught that fruits will identify the true from the false:

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Matthew 7:15-20)

So, fruits are the criteria Matthew recorded that Jesus set.

Good trees produce a lot of fruit.

The CCOG has the signs/fruits and fruits of God’s Spirit in the last days as prophesied in Acts 2:17-18 (see also Does the CCOG have the confirmed signs of Acts 2:17-18?).

Deuteronomy 7:13 refers to people as the fruit of the womb.

If fruits can also be defined as people in the Church of God, then CCOG has those.

Since CCOG formed, it has produced the most fruit that way.

Fruits of a prophet include fulfilled prophecies. You can see some of them listed in the article: Church of God Leaders on Prophets.

But it is not just enough that the prophet be right not to be false. Notice also the following:

1″If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’ — which you have not known — ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. (Deuteronomy 13:1-4)

So, if the prophet does not keep and advocate keeping God’s commandments, he is also false.

Thus, another fruit of a true prophet is that he advocates that people keep God’s commandments.

We have a book that I wrote on that titled: The Ten Commandments: The Decalogue, Christianity, and the Beast.

The Bible reported that Elijah was a prophet (1 Kings 18:22). Jesus said in the last days, a coming Elijah would “restore all things” (Matthew 17:11). More things have been restored in the CCOG than other other church in the 21st century. For a list, check out the article: Continuing Church of God, Elijah, and Restoring All Things.

If fruits include restored doctrinal and prophetic truths (see Continuing Church of God, Elijah, and Restoring All Things), since CCOG formed, it has produced the most fruit that way.

While size is not an indicator of truth, the truth is that the CCOG has been the fastest growing COG in the 21st century.

The New Testament (e.g. Acts 2, 1 Corinthians 14, Revelation 11) makes it clear that there would be prophets in the latter days.

Specifically, Acts 2:17-18 which has already had fulfillments in the Continuing Church of God (for details, see Does the CCOG have the confirmed signs of Acts 2:17-18?).

Anyway, an even more detailed article about prophets in the Church of God is How To Determine If Someone is a True Prophet of God. That article not only has scriptures, it also has historical COG writings that should help people who will believe the truth to be able to see the truth.

Do not be deceived by grumblers or accusers of the brethren like Gary Leonard.

Do not let pride or preconceived ideas get in the way of you accepting biblical truth. That, according to Jesus, is actually the biggest problem for most Christians in the end time per Revelation 3:14-22–most Christians refuse to fully “hear what the Spirit says to the churches” (Revelation 3:22).

Will you truly hear and take the proper steps related to matters such as prophets?

Some items of possibly related interest may include:

Herbert W. Armstrong, the Philadelphia Church, & the Mantle Herbert Armstrong claims God had him raise the Philadelphia up. Are there reasons to believe that the Philadelphia mantle in now within the CCOG? Here is a link to a related sermon: Herbert W. Armstrong and the Philadelphia Mantle.
21st Century Church of God Prophets Are there any true prophets in the 21st century? What about false prophets? What are scriptures and fruits to identify the true from the false? You you prove all things and test the spirits?
Church of God Leaders on Prophets Have there been prophets throughout the church age? Are any supposed to be around in the last days? What have COG leaders stated or written about prophets? Here is a link to a related sermon: Church of God Leaders on Prophets.
Herbert W. Armstrong, the Philadelphia Church, & the Mantle Herbert Armstrong claims God had him raise the Philadelphia up. Are there reasons to believe that the Philadelphia mantle in now within the CCOG? Here is a link to a related sermon: Herbert W. Armstrong and the Philadelphia Mantle.
Does the CCOG have the confirmed signs of Acts 2:17-18? Does any church have the confirmed dream and prophetic signs of Acts 2:17-18? Should one? Here is a link in the Spanish language: ¿Tiene la CCOG confirmadas las señales de Hechos 2: 17-18? Here is a link in the French language: Est-ce que l’Église Continue de Dieu confirme les signes d’Actes 2:17-18? A related sermon in the English language is also available: 17 Last Days’ Signs of the Holy Spirit.
How To Determine If Someone is a True Prophet of God There are many false prophets, yet many overlook what the Bible teaches about how to recognize a true one. How can Christians determine who is a true prophet? This article contains a scripture-based checklist to assist with this determination. How to determine if someone is a true prophet of God This is a sermon on YouTube addressing a subject that most in the Church of God do not seem to have looked into very much. It discusses scriptures and dispels some improper assertions that some associated with the COG have made about prophets in this time.
Do You Hold to Any of These Laodicean Prophetic Errors? Most real Christians in the last days are Laodicean and hold to prophetic errors which, unless they repent, will prevent them from being protected from the coming Great Tribulation.
Dreams, the Bible, the Radio Church of God, and the Continuing Church of God How has God used dreams in the past? Does God still use dreams? Did He use any involving those in the Continuing Church of God? Here is a link in Spanish: Sueños, la Biblia, la Iglesia de Dios de la Radio, y la Continuación de la Iglesia de Dios. A related sermon is also available: Dreams, COGs, and One Man Rule.
Elijah: Past and Prophesied Information about the original Elijah and some information about the Elijah-related prophecies.
The Elijah Heresies Does the Bible teach that there will be a future Elijah? Must it be Herbert W. Armstrong?
Why Be Concerned About False and Heretical Leaders? There have been many false leaders–here is some of why you should be concerned about them.
Where is the True Christian Church Today? This free online pdf booklet answers that question and includes 18 proofs, clues, and signs to identify the true vs. false Christian church. Plus 7 proofs, clues, and signs to help identify Laodicean churches. A related sermon is also available: Where is the True Christian Church? Here is a link to the booklet in the Spanish language: ¿Dónde está la verdadera Iglesia cristiana de hoy? Here is a link in the German language: WO IST DIE WAHRE CHRISTLICHE KIRCHE HEUTE? Here is a link in the French language: Où est la vraie Église Chrétienne aujourd’hui?
The Sardis Church Era was predominant circa 1600 A.D. to circa 1933 A.D. Discusses some early history of the Seventh Day Baptists, Seventh-day Adventists, CG7-Salem, Jerusalem 7DCG, and COG-7th Day-Denver. Here are two historical sermons: Sardis Church Era: Beginnings, Doctrines, and Leaders and Sardis: SDBs, SDAs, & CG7s.
The Philadelphia Church Era was predominant circa 1933 A.D. to 1986 A.D. The old Radio Church of God and old Worldwide Church of God, now the remnant of that era is basically the most faithful in the Church of God, like who hold to the beliefs and practices of the Continuing Church of God.
The Laodicean Church Era has been predominant circa 1986 A.D. to present. The Laodiceans are non-Philadelphians who mainly descended from the old WCG or its offshoots.  They do not properly understand the work or biblical prophecies and will face the Great Tribulation if they do not repent. One video of related interest is 17 Laodicean Errors in Prophecy. See also Do You Hold to Any of These Laodicean Prophetic Errors?
Who Are The Two Witnesses? What is their job? What does the Bible reveal? What has the Church of God taught on this subject? Might even Roman Catholic prophecies give some clues here?
The Final Phase of the Work What is the final phase of the work? Who will lead it? Do you have the courage to support it? Here is a related YouTube video titled The Final Phase of the Work. The written article has been translated into Spanish La Fase Final de la Obra.
The Bible, Peter, Paul, John, Polycarp, Herbert W. Armstrong, Roderick C. Meredith, and Bob Thiel on Church Government What form of governance did the early church have? Was it hierarchical? Which form of governance would one expect to have in the Philadelphia remnant? The people decide and/or committee forms, odd dictatorships, or the same type that the Philadelphia era itself had? What are some of the scriptural limits on ecclesiastical authority? Do some commit organizational idolatry? Here is a Spanish language version La Biblia, Policarpo, Herbert W. Armstrong, y Roderick C. Meredith sobre el gobierno de la Iglesia. Here is a link to a sermon titled Church Governance.
Continuing Church of God The group striving to be most faithful amongst all real Christian groups to the word of God. To see how CCOG has done so far, here is a sermon Continuing Church of God (CCOG) first year anniversary: What has been accomplished? Here is a written link to a version of that sermon in the Spanish language: Aniversario del primer año de la Continuación de la Iglesia de Dios: ¿Qué se ha cumplido?
CCOG.ORG Continuing Church of God The group striving to be most faithful amongst all real Christian groups to the word of God.

Logo of Messianic Jews

COGwriter

Although they keep the Sabbath and Holy Days, plus do not eat biblically unclean animals, Messianic Jews are NOT in the Church of God. Unlike those in the CCOG, they consider that the Protestants are real Christians.

Here is some of what one Messianic group says about their history:

Messianic Judaism as a distinct movement faded in the seventh century, there have always been individual Jewish Believers in Yeshua. Beginning in the early 1800s increasing numbers of Jewish people began believing in Yeshua. The modern Messianic Jewish movement came to fruition in the 1960s and 1970s. (What is Messianic Judaism? Congregation Shema Yisrael. viewed 09/07/14)

Furthermore, they tend to push 613 requirements:

So what relationship does the Gentile Christian have to the 613 laws of the Torah? The book of Acts records that Messiah’s Emissaries (the Apostles) and the Elders of Messiah’s Holy Community met to decide this very issue. In the Messianic Jewish community we commonly refer to this meeting, recorded in Acts 15, as “the First Jerusalem Council”. (What is Messianic Judaism. Congregation Shema Yisrael. http://shema.com/messianic-judaism/what-is-it/ viewed 12/30/19)

Let it be stated that the apostles did NOT meet to discuss the ‘613 laws of the Torah’ in Acts 15. There is no such thing biblically. Messianic Jews should not try to kid themselves that the list was the issue.

The list of 613 comes from Jewish tradition and a misnomer about pomegranates (supposedly they have 613 seeds, but they range from about 165 to over 1000). In Acts 15, we learn that the council of apostles and elders got together to decide whether or not Gentile Christians had to be physically circumcised. Many of the 613 ‘mitzvot’ are not laws of the Torah, but are Jewish traditions.

This Messianic movement considers itself to have the “same core beliefs” as professing Christian groups like Protestants (ibid).

While beliefs vary, Messianics tend to consider heaven the reward of the saved, that God is a trinity, Jesus was killed on a Friday, and that it is fine to celebrate Christmas and Easter (https://www.shema.com/frequently-asked-questions-12659/ accessed 12/20/19). Those are also positions of the SDAs (Seventh-day Adventists) and SDBs (Seventh Day Baptists)–groups which also endorse the use of crosses as a religious symbol.

The Messianics differ in that they advocate wearing things like tassels (specially knotted ritual fringes worn by observant Jews, also known as tzitzits) as well as “a Star of David, or a Star of David with a cross in it” (ibid). We in the CCOG do not. Some Messianic men wear head coverings known as kippah (also called a yarmulke) even at times they would be biblically-prohibited (cf. 1 Corinthians 11:4,7).

The New Testament demonstrates the apostles did not appear to look like Jewish rabbis or Levitical priests, though many Messianic leaders seem to try to do so. When, for one example, the Apostle Paul was arrested, the authorities did not recognize him as a Jew, but thought he was an Egyptian (Acts 21:37-38). Paul had to tell the military commander he was a Jew (Acts 27:39). Thus, Paul did not look like a Jewish rabbi, nor was he apparently wearing distinguishing phylacteries or tzitzits as the Messianic Jews do. Christians have God’s laws written on their hearts (Hebrews 10:16), hence do not need to wear visual reminders.

Many Messianics use Hebrew names for deity. For some of them, it is based on the wrong idea that the New Testament was primarily written in Hebrew or Aramaic, which it was not. Other than a very few Aramaic quotes, the New Testament was written in koine Greek. When one accepts that fact, one can see that God did not intend nor expect people to use Hebrew names for deity. Furthermore, because of the early lack of vowels in Hebrew, no one actually can be certain how those Hebrew names were originally pronounced.

Messianic Jews tend to consider themselves as at least similar to Protestants who accept Jesus, but believe that they should live somewhat like Orthodox Jews.

The Messianic Jewish movement is not part of the Church of God.

Related to the Seventh-day Baptists and Adventists, the old Worldwide CHurch of God published the following:

 By 1800, Protestant doctrines were prevalent in the Sabbath-keeping congregations. Many began to form a denomination. This group officially adopted the name “Seventh-day Baptist” in 1818.

Ten or 12 congregations — in the Pennsylvania to Rhode Island area alone — would not at first affiliate with this denomination of men. Even as late as 1828, only 16 to 20 congregations were being represented at the Seventh-day Baptist Conference meetings, while they spoke disparagingly of other “fanatical and unworthy” Sabbath keepers (The Seventh-day Baptists in Europe and America. pp. 153,175).

As always, the few had refused to go along, and had remained faithful to the name and doctrine of the Church of God!

In the middle of the century these remnants of God’s people are found in fellowship with Sabbath-keeping people who were part of a great Advent movement.

When the Adventists organized themselves as a denomination in 1860, only a few — mostly in the states of Ohio, Iowa and Missouri — did not go along. The printing plant and the magazine formerly published in the name of the Church of God were taken over by the Adventists.

But a group of the faithful in1861 began the publication of a new monthly paper called The Remnant of Israel, later changed to The Sabbath Advocate and finally to The Bible Advocate. (Armstrong HW. The Church They Couldn’t Destroy. Good News, December 1981)

The Continuing Church of God has the following sermon about some of the reasons certain Sabbath observing groups are not COG on our ContinuingCOG channel:

1:20:28

Seventh Day Baptists/ Adventists/ Messianics: Protestant or COG?

Although Seventh Day Baptists (SDBs), Seventh-day Adventist (SDAs), and Messianic Jews keep some version of the seventh day Sabbath, are they Protestant or Church of God. What do they claim? What do they teach? What do SDAs and Messianic Jews teach about their history? Do SDBs cite groups who held Church of God (COG) and not SDB doctrines? Which group teaches the original biblical Christian faith? How do the SDAs, Messianics, and SDBs agree with Protestants on issues such as salvation, history, and the Godhead, which differ greatly from the Continuing Church of God (CCOG)? Are there really 613 laws of the Torah? What are 28 ways the SDAs differ from the CCOG? Are ‘Black Israelites’ right about Jesus being a black African? Was the Day of Atonement on October 22, 1844 according to Rabbinical or Karaite Jews? Did the SDAs or COG come out of the Millerite movement? Did Ellen White make false prophecies that she insisted came from God? If so, what were some of them? Did the SDA church send out literature it knew was clearly wrong? Was Ellen G. White’s sanctuary interpretation the “complete system of truth”? Did SDAs once teach crosses were pagan, but now include them in their official logo? Which of the 4 church’s (SDB,SDA, Messianic, CCOG) doctrines have the most biblical and historical support? Dr. Thiel addresses these issues and more.

Here is a link to the sermon video: Seventh Day Baptists/Adventists/Messianics: Protestant or COG?

Some items of possibly related interest may include:

Messianic Judaism Beliefs Differ from the Continuing Church of God Both groups keep the seventh-day Sabbath, but have important differences in doctrines and practices. Here is a link to a related sermon: Messianic Jewish Beliefs.
Which Laws were Superceded? Which Remain? What about the Ten Commandments? What about the 613 regulations (called 613 Mitzvot) in the Old Testament? Which were ‘done away’?
The Sardis Church Era was predominant circa 1600 A.D. to circa 1933 A.D. Discusses early history of the Seventh Day Baptists, Seventh-day Adventists, and COG-7th Day.
Seventh Day Baptists are Protestant, not Church of God This article explains reasons why Baptists, include seventh day ones (SDBs) do not have the historical and doctrinal ties to the original church that many have claimed. Here are two related sermons in the English language: Seventh Day Baptists/Adventists/Messianics: Protestant or COG? and Protestant, Baptist, and CCOG History.
SDA/CCOG Differences: Two Horned Beast of Revelation and 666 The genuine Church of God is NOT part of the Seventh-day Adventists. This article explains two prophetic differences, the trinity, differences in approaching doctrine, including Ellen White. Did Ellen White make prophetic errors? Did Ellen White make false prophecies? Here is a version in the Spanish language: SDA/COG Diferencias: La bestia de dos cuernos de Apocalipsis y 666. Here is a sermon in the English language: CCOG and SDA differences and similarities.
The Sardis Church Era was predominant circa 1600 A.D. to circa 1933 A.D. Discusses some early history of the Seventh Day Baptists, Seventh-day Adventists, CG7-Salem, Jerusalem 7DCG, and COG-7th Day-Denver. Here are links to two historical sermons: Sardis Church Era: Beginnings, Doctrines, and Leaders and Sardis: SDBs, SDAs, & CG7s.
What is the Origin of the Cross as a ‘Christian’ Symbol? Was the cross used as a venerated symbol by the early Church? Two related YouTube videos would be Beware of the ‘Ecumenical Cross’, The Chrislam Cross and the Interfaith Movement, and Origin of the Cross.
Did Early Christians Think the Holy Spirit Was A Separate Person in a Trinity? Or did they have a different view? A related sermon is available: Truth about the Holy Spirit: What THEY do not want you to know!
Did the True Church Ever Teach a Trinity? Most act like this is so, but is it? Here is an old, by somewhat related, article in the Spanish language LA DOCTRINA DE LA TRINIDAD. A related sermon is available: Trinity: Fundamental to Christianity or Something Else? A brief video is also available: Three trinitarian scriptures?
Did the Archangel Michael become Jesus? The Jehovah’s Witnesses teach this, and SDA Ellen White did, but does the Bible allow for this?
Binitarianism: One God, Two Beings Before the Beginning This is a longer article than the Binitarian View article, and has a little more information on binitarianism, and less about unitarianism. A related sermon is also available: Binitarian view of the Godhead.
Which Laws were Superceded? Which Remain? What about the Ten Commandments? What about the 613 regulations (called 613 Mitzvot) in the Old Testament? Which were ‘done away’?
Tradition and Scripture: From the Bible and Church Writings Are traditions on equal par with scripture? Many believe that is what Peter, John, and Paul taught. But did they? A related sermon is titled Tradition and Scripture.
Hope of Salvation: How the Continuing Church of God Differs from Protestantism The CCOG is NOT Protestant. This free online book explains how the real Church of God differs from mainstream/traditional Protestants. Several sermons related to the free book are also available: Protestant, Baptist, and CCOG History; The First Protestant, God’s Command, Grace, & Character; The New Testament, Martin Luther, and the Canon; Eucharist, Passover, and Easter; Views of Jews, Lost Tribes, Warfare, & Baptism; Scripture vs. Tradition, Sabbath vs. Sunday; Church Services, Sunday, Heaven, and God’s Plan; Seventh Day Baptists/Adventists/Messianics: Protestant or COG?; Millennial Kingdom of God and God’s Plan of Salvation; Crosses, Trees, Tithes, and Unclean Meats; The Godhead and the Trinity; Fleeing or Rapture?; and Ecumenism, Rome, and CCOG Differences.

 

The Casket Claimed to be that of Mark of Alexandria in Venice (Photo by Joyce Thiel)

COGwriter

My wife Joyce and I have visited St. Mark’s Square and the related church in Venice, Italy on several occasions.

People in Venice repeatedly have been told, and often believe, that they have the body of Mark, the Gospel writer. Essentially, the old Venetians stole a body from Alexandria, Egypt centuries ago. This was the body that the Alexandrians claimed was Mark, the writer of the Gospel bearing his name.

Here is the story behind one of the mosaics at the square:

The mosaic (said to be of Saint Alipio) that overlooks the first portal on the right hand side dates back to 1260. It tells the story of two merchants: Rustico from Torcello and Bruno from Malamocco who in 828 secretly stole the body of San Marco from Alessandria (Egypt). From the picture you can see the two merchants avoid the Muslim guards by hiding the body of St Mark underneath pork meat, (food considered dirty according to Islam) and calling out ‘canzir’ that in Arabic means pork. The disgusted guards reacted by not inspecting the load, enabling the corpse to be taken aboard the ship that set sail immediately for Venice. http://www.tours-italy.com/venice-about-st_marks_basilica.htm

San Marco means “Saint Mark.”

As it turns out, some believe that the arrival of the corpse of “Mark” in Venice fulfilled a private prophecy, which is one reason that this is accepted. Some also believe the idea that Mark indirectly founded Venice by founding a bishopric in Aquileia (which is about 125 km away). This seems to be based upon legends found in eighth century writings (Sethre J. The souls of Venice. McFarland, 2003, p. 28). Because of these legends, the Venetians claim that the gospel writer Mark founded their church (the Alexandrians also claim Mark).

As far as the ‘prophecy’ of Mark’s body goes, here is one account of it:

In the “legend of predestination,” ratified by Andrea Dandolo, Mark of the Gospel becomes Mark of Venice. An angel brings him a message while he pauses amidst the Venetian marshes. at the very site where Rivus Altus/Venice will rise centuries later: “Pax tibi, Marce, evangelista meus.” The message foresees Mark’s spiritual presence in the city. The arrival of his relics in 828 “confirms” the truth of that prophecy. (Sethre J. The souls of Venice. McFarland, 2003, p. 28).

Whether or not Mark was in Venice, many believe the Venetians taking of a body in Alexandria fulfills this prophecy. Yet, as will be discussed later, Mark’s body was not actually in Alexandria, thus in the physical sense, the prophecy is clearly false.

Some Religious History of Venice

Those in the ‘Patriarchate of Venice’ believe that the gospel writer Mark may have visited some of the outlying islands or at least one he ordained came to their area. Notice also the following:

The Venetian islands at first belonged to the diocese of Altino or the diocese of Padua, under jurisdiction of the Archbishop of Aquileia, believed to be the successor of St. Mark.

It is certain that during the Lombard invasion (568-572) many bishops of the invaded mainland escaped under protection of the Byzantine fleet in the eastern lagoons. The Archbishop himself took refuge in Grado, where he was claimed as Patriarch, during the schism of the Three Chapters. At the end of the invasion, many of the ancient diocese of the mainland were restored by the Lombards, while the Exiles supported the new sees in the lagoons. Two patriarchs emerged from the war and from the schism (at least solved in 698): Patriarchate of Old-Aquileia on the mainland and Patriarchate of Grado…

774. In that year, with the consent of pope Adrian I and the Patriarch of Grado John IV, an episcopal see was erected on the island of Olivolo (afterwards called Castello) with jurisdiction over Gemini, Rialto, Luprio and Dorsoduro. The first bishop, Obelerius, was invested and enthroned by the Doge of Venice, Maurice Galbaio, and ordained by the Patriarch. After Obelerius’ death, the doge named Christopher from Damiata in 798, a member of the Greek party (that is, the partisans of the Eastern Emperor). Patriarch John, a member of the Frankish party (the partisans of Charlemagne) refused to consecrate him, due to his extreme youth. A subsequent confrontation led to the murder of Patriarch John. John was succeeded by his nephew Fortunato from Trieste, who placed himself under the protection of the Frank-Lombard Kingdom and to a confused period, during which the chair of Olivolo was a long struggle. The same Duchy was invaded by the Franks, that besieged the (political) Metamaucus and were defeated and expelled only in 810. The victorious Greek party, led by the new ducal family of Parteciaci, in 812 moved the ducal see from Metamaucus to the more secure Rialto, at the center of the lagoon. A new city was created by the merger of the central islands, including Olivolo: that city was Venice. Finally, after the death of Patriarch Fortunato in 825, Orso, son of the doge John I Pateciacus, became bishop of the city. Under him, the relics of the Evangelist St. Mark were transferred from the Muslim dominated Alexandria of Egypt and brought to Venice…

In 1074 Bishop Henry, from the noble family of Contarini, was the first to bear the title of Bishop of Castello, indicating the complete merger of the island of Olivolo with Venice…Patriarchs of Grado began to reside in Venice more and more until in 1105 they definitely transferred to the city, with their own church at St. Silvestrus. For the next three centuries, three bishops resided in Venice: the Patriarch of Grado, the Primicerius of St. Mark and the Bishop of Castello, each one with his own jurisdiction.

The city gathered relics, especially from the East, and especially after the conquest of Constantinople. After 1204, the icon of the Madonna called Nicopoeia, which is still in St. Mark’s, arrived. (Patriarch of Venice, Wikipedia, viewed 06/09/13)

The diocese of Venice was basically created in 774 as suffragan of the Patriarchate of Grado. It is alleged that because the Venetians did not wish to have to fully accepted papal authority, that they decided to take the alleged body of Mark from the Eastern Orthodox of Alexandria Egypt in order to claim an apostolic tie that was not directly part of Rome. At this time, the “Great Schism” of 1054 (which is how the Eastern Orthodox describe it) had not happened yet and Rome officially still recognized their claimed ‘apostolic sees’.

This seemed to work for the Venetians for a while, especially when they were in the height of their power (they basically had a monopoly on making clear glass for some time, which made them fairly wealthy). But they eventually reunited with Rome.

In 1457, basically because in consideration of the political influence of the city, its bishops were accorded the title of patriarch by the Pope.

Within the Latin Church, Rome recognizes five Latin sees, including the Diocese of Rome. The others, which it accords the title of Patriarchate, also include Venice, Lisbon, the East Indies, and Jerusalem.

By tradition, the Patriarch of Venice becomes a cardinal at the consistory following his appointment, although the Pope is not bound by law to do this. So, basically the Venetians feel special and have more influence than the average Catholic diocese.

The fact that the biblical Mark was not part of a faith that would have encouraged the collection and adoration of relics does not seem to bother the Venetians.

Mark, the Alexandrians, and the Body

As far as Mark being the bishop of the Alexandrians, that is simply not true.

The fact that it is, at best, highly-questionable has long been known by the Church of Rome. Notice what the old The Catholic Encyclopedia taught:

A widespread, if somewhat late, tradition represents St. Mark as the founder of the Church of Alexandria. Though strangely enough Clement and Origen make no reference to the saint’s connection with their city…the chronology of the Apostolic age is admittedly uncertain, and that we have no earlier authority than Eusebius for the date of the foundation of the Alexandrian Church, we may perhaps conclude with more probability that it was founded somewhat later…the New Testament is silent in regard to St. Mark, for his activity in Egypt. (MacRory, Joseph. “St. Mark.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 9. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1910. 17 Aug. 2008 <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09672c.htm>)

A “late tradition” means that it was likely made up over a century later. The fact is that the biblical Mark could not have been the first “Bishop of Alexandria,” and probably did not even visit Alexandria. Origen wrote so much that it is almost inconceivable that he would not have pointed to a biblical connection to Alexandria if one actually existed. The fact that the New Testament does not mention Mark in Egypt (but instead mentions him in many other places) should show that there are major problems with the later tradition. Despite the facts, in late 2012, the then Pope Benedict XVI referred to the Coptic Orthodox Church in Alexandria as the “See of Saint Mark,” which it could not be (Pope Benedict’s Message to His Holiness Tawadros II. From the Vatican 11/14/12;. Zenit.org, November 19, 2012).

Perhaps it should also be noted that the body that is in Venice now is not even certain to be the body that was taken from Alexandria as the Venetians lost it. Here is an explanation:

In 1063, during the construction of a new basilica in Venice, St. Mark’s relics could not be found. However, according to tradition, in 1094 the saint himself revealed the location of his remains by extending an arm from a pillar. The newfound remains were placed in a sarcophagus in the basilica. Copts believe that the head of St. Mark remains in a church named after him in Alexandria, and parts of his relics are in St. Mark’s Cairo’s Cathedral. (Wikipedia, viewed 06/03/2013)

Thus, the body is at best incomplete. It is not Mark’s body, and even what is there now may have been just thrown together from some bones not even from Alexandria. Mark is dead and in his grave and he did not appear to tell the Venetians where some of his body parts were.

It is not possible, according to the scriptural accounts, for Mark to have been the Bishop of Alexandria when the Alexandrians (and Copts) claim that he was. Those who falsely believe that (and those that falsely believe a lot of other theological lies) would not have that problem if they would truly heed Jesus’ words:

31 “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:31-32)

Allegory and fable is not on the same level as the literal truth of the word of God.

Mark is Not Mentioned as Being in Alexandria or Venice in the Bible

Since Mark is mentioned many times in the New Testament (never with the title of apostle or Bishop), the apparent dates and events in the Bible that mention Mark demonstrate that Mark could not have been the Bishop of Alexandria at that time. The Bible clearly shows that Mark was in, or traveling to, many other places. The area of Venice is not mentioned either, though it is theoretically more possible that Mark could have visited Venice than been Bishop of Alexandria.

As far as Mark and his locations, around 43-44 A.D., Mark is mentioned first in Acts 12:12, when he is praying in Jerusalem. Herod is noted as dying in Acts 12:20-23, which was in 44 A.D. (Radmacher, p. 1813). Sometime after Herod’s death, notice:

25 And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem when they had fulfilled their ministry, and they also took with them John whose surname was Mark (Acts 12:25).

Thus, Mark was in Jerusalem and then went with Paul and Barnabas.

In 46 A.D. Mark spent time with Paul and Barnabas in the Antioch Church before he accompanied them as a helper on their first missionary journey.

Mark apparently went with Paul and Barnabas from around 47-49 A.D.

But Paul was not pleased with Mark and did not want him to accompany him on the next trip:

37 Now Barnabas was determined to take with them John called Mark. 38 But Paul insisted that they should not take with them the one who had departed from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them to the work. 39 Then the contention became so sharp that they parted from one another. And so Barnabas took Mark and sailed to Cyprus (Acts 15:37-39).

Notice that Paul considered Mark unfaithful, and that Mark then went to the island of Cyprus (not Alexandria). There is no way anyone should have considered the unfaithful Mark to have been a faithful “apostle” at that time, around 50-53 A.D.

Later, Paul apparently changed his mind about Mark.

10 Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him) (Colossians 4:10).

This occurred around 60 A.D. and Mark is believed to have been with Paul in Rome then. He could have possibly passed by the islands near Venice then, but the Bible does not specify.

Around 64-67 A.D., Paul declared that Mark was useful:

11 Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for ministry (2 Timothy 4:11).

It should be noted that the Bible never mentions that Mark was ever in Alexandria, and gives no indication that he was a “bishop” over any area.

Instead the biblical account clearly contradicts the position of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria, that Mark was its bishop from 42-62 A.D. as Mark was in Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, Cyprus, and other areas during this time. Plus, according to various historians, he was still alive in 67 A.D.

Also notice what other scholars have noted:

… Alexandria, the second home of Judaism, occupies no place in the development of the Church as depicted for us in the Acts. (Ramsay WM. The Church in the Roman Empire before A.D. 170. (London, 1893.) as cited/discussed in Studies in early church history: collected papers. C.H. Turner,editor, Clarendon Press, 1912, p. 165)

Alexandria and Mark’s connection to it should have been in the Book of Acts if Alexandria was founded and led by him.

Furthermore, even though Eusebius mentions Mark, he noted that there was a problem with those who professed Christ early in Alexandria:

1. And they say that this Mark was the first that was sent to Egypt, and that he proclaimed the Gospel which he had written, and first established churches in Alexandria.

2. And the multitude of believers, both men and women, that were collected there at the very outset, and lived lives of the most philosophical and excessive asceticism was so great, that Philo thought it worth while to describe their pursuits, their meetings, their entertainments, and their whole manner of life. (Eusebius. The History of the Church, Book II, Chapter XVI, Verses 1-2, p. 33)

When Nero was in the eighth year of his reign, Annianus succeeded Mark the evangelist in the administration of the parish of Alexandria (Ibid, Chapter 24, p. 42).

It should be noted that Eusebius’ source or conclusion regarding Annianus/Anianos seems to be in error. The eighth year of Nero’s reign would be 61-62 A.D. and the Orthodox do claim that Anianos was a bishop there from 62 A.D.

However, this would seem to be a historical problem if he succeeded Mark upon his death.

Why?

Because according to Peter, Mark was alive when Peter wrote 1 Peter 5:13, which states:

13 She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son…

Furthermore, according to Irenaeus (c. 175 A.D.), Mark was alive after Peter died:

Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter…(Irenaeus. Adversus haereses, Book III, Chapter 1, Verse 1. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1885. Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody (MA), p. 414.)

While it is not certain that Peter actually preached in Rome, if Irenaeus is correct that Mark functioned as Peter’s interpreter and later wrote after the death of Peter, then it would seem that Mark could not have died before 67 A.D., nor could he have been functioning as the Bishop of Alexandria. Thus, if there was an “Apostle” Mark in Alexandria in the 1^st century, he would have been a false apostle and not the Mark who the New Testament discusses.

Probably little of this mattered to the old Venetians. They basically wanted to pretend enough to be Catholic that the Church of Rome could not brand them as heretics or apostates worthy of punishment. Having a body and claiming to have been related to Mark was politically-expedient. And whether or not this was a factor, for a long time the Church of Rome left Venice basically alone.

Pope Francis, however, teaches that Mark was the one that the Alexandrians, and thus by semi-extension Venice, had apostolic succession from (see Pope Francis’ appeal to Pope Tawadros II should concern Catholics and others).

Doctrines That Mark Would Have Held Should Matter

Of course, the gospel writer Mark would have had doctrines that the faithful and real Christians had.

Notice something that Mark was inspired to write:

19…Jesus…27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.” (Mark 2:19, 27-28)

But neither the Venetians nor the Alexandrians keep the seventh-day Sabbath as Jesus and Mark would have.

Mark was also inspired to write:

11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.'” (Mark 4:11-12)

30 Then He said, “To what shall we liken the kingdom of God? Or with what parable shall we picture it? 31 It is like a mustard seed which, when it is sown on the ground, is smaller than all the seeds on earth; 32 but when it is sown, it grows up and becomes greater than all herbs, and shoots out large branches, so that the birds of the air may nest under its shade.” (Mark 4:30-32)

Yet neither the Venetians nor the Alexandrians teach or understand about the mystery of the Kingdom of God nor the real meaning of the Parable of the Mustard Seed.

To a great degree, the Venetians and Alexandrians hold to tradition above scripture in many areas. Jesus noted the same problem in His day, as Mark was inspired to report:

6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men — the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. (Mark 7:6-9)

For those who want to learn more about what God inspired Mark to write, we have a series of sermons that cover every verse of Mark’s Gospel:

MARK Here is a link to a sermon covering all of Jesus’ words in the Gospel of Mark: What did Jesus teach in the Book of Mark? Here is a link to six sermons covering all the verses in the Gospel of Mark: Mark 1-2: Author, Prophecy, & Miracles, Mark 3-5: Healing, Demons, and Parables, Mark 6-9: Tradition, John’s beheading, Elijah, and Restoration, Mark 10-12: Marriage, Divorce, Needle Eye, Greatest Command, & Taxes, Mark 13: Temple, Four Horsemen, Troubles, Great Tribulation, and Gospel Proclamation, and Mark 14-16: Jesus’ Priorities & Betrayal, the Resurrection, Signs, and Reaching the World.

Mark, like the other Gospel writers, reported about Passover:

12 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?”

13 And He sent out two of His disciples and said to them, “Go into the city, and a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him. 14 Wherever he goes in, say to the master of the house, ‘The Teacher says, “Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?”‘ 15 Then he will show you a large upper room, furnished and prepared; there make ready for us.”

16 So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared the Passover.

17 In the evening He came with the twelve. (Mark 14:12-18)

That Passover was on the fourteenth of Nisan as nearly all scholars will admit. That day was condemned by the Greco-Roman faiths, but Mark would have kept it then. Yet, those associated with the Venetians and Alexandrians do not.

The following also would have been doctrines that Mark would have held to that the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Venice do not hold:

Baptism was by immersion and did not include infants.
A Binitarian view, that acknowledged the Holy Spirit, was held by the apostolic and post-apostolic true Christian leaders.
Birthdays were not celebrated by early Christians.
Born-Again meant being born at the resurrection, not at the time of conversion.
Celibacy for Bishops/Presbyters/Elders was not a requirement.
Christmas was not observed by any professing Christ prior to the third century, or ever by those holding to early teachings. Here is a link to a related sermon: What do Catholic and other scholars teach about Christmas?
Confession of sins were not made to priests and did not require penance. A related sermon is Confess to God and truly repent.
Duties of Elders/Pastors were pastoral and theological, not predominantly sacramental–nor did they dress as many now do.
Easter per se was not observed by the apostolic church.
The Fall Holy Days were observed by true early Christians.
Heaven was not taught to be the reward of Christians. Here is a link to a related sermon: Heaven and Christianity.
Holy Spirit was not referred to as God or as a person by any early true Christians.
Idols were taught against, including adoration of the cross.
Immortality of the soul or humans was not taught. Here is a YouTube video titled Are humans immortal?
The Kingdom of God was preached. You can also see a YouTube video sermon The Gospel of the Kingdom.
Leavened Bread was removed from the homes of early Christians when the Jews did the same. See also the video : Christians and the Days of Unleavened Bread.
Lent was not observed by the primitive church.
Limbo was not taught by the original church.
Military Service was not allowed for true early Christians. A related sermon would be: Christians, Violence, and Military Service.
Millenarianism (a literal thousand year reign of Christ on Earth, often called the millennium) was taught by the early Christians. A related sermon is titled The Millennium.
Monasticism was unheard of in the early Christian church.
Passover was kept on the 14th of Nisan by apostolic and second century Christians in Asia Minor. There is also a detailed YouTube video available titled History of the Christian Passover.
Pentecost was kept on Sunday by certain Jews and was observed then by professing Christians. Here is a YouTube sermon titled Pentecost: Feast of Firstfruits.
Purgatory was not taught by the original apostolic church.
Salvation was believed to be offered to the chosen now by the early Church, with others being called later, though not all that taught that (or other doctrines) practiced “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3).
God’s Six Thousand Year Plan for humankind to rule itself was believed by early professors of Christ. There is also a video titled The 6000 Year Plan: Is the end of humanity’s reign almost up?
Sunday was not observed by the apostolic and original post-apostolic Christians.
Tithes and Offerings were given to support the ministry, the churches, the needy, and evangelical travels and gospel proclamation.
Tradition had some impact on the second century Christians, but was never supposed to supercede the Bible.
The Trinity was not a word used to describe the Godhead by the apostolic or second century Christians, though a certain threeness was acknowledged.
The New Testament Church and Unclean Meats Are foods considered to have been unclean in the Old Testament considered to be food in the New Testament? This article discusses this from the perspective of the New Testament. It also has a list of clean and unclean animals. It also answers the question, is pork healthy or is pork dangerous? There is also a sermon-length video on this: Christians and Unclean Meats.

The fact that the Alexandrians and Venetians of the Middle Ages did not have the same teachings or practices of the gospel writer Mark probably did not matter to the Venetians of old either.

Sadly, the fact that those associated with the Venetian and Alexandrian patriarchs today do not hold those practices should give them pause to consider, if Mark was their founder, how can they claim that if they do not do what he would have done or believe as he did?

Why is any of this important to Christians?

There are basically two reasons.

The first is the reality that the so-called ‘apostolic sees’ that the Church of Rome and the Eastern Orthodox claim simply do not hold to the teachings of the original apostles, hence none truly have ‘apostolic succession.’

The fact that their origins are often, directly or indirectly (such as the non-fulfilled “prophecy” about Mark returning to Venice), based on false or implausible information should show all that they do not have “the love of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

The second is that we who have that “love of the truth” need to “be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear” (1 Peter 3:15, KJV) as to why we do not accept the improper Greco-Roman versions of church doctrine or history. The truth of church history needs to be restored and brought to light (cf. Matthew 5:14-16; 17:11).

The time is coming when the Beast power will rise up and, at first, I expect that he and his supporters will give lip service to the idea of the Greco-Roman apostolic sees as partial proof why they, and not groups like the Continuing Church of God, have ties to apostolic Christianity. They will be wrong, of course. But we of the faithful flock need to be able to explain why they are wrong and that is part of why I posted this about the claimed ‘see’ of Venice.

Only those who have the same teachings and practices of the apostles can possibly have true apostolic succession.

Which brings to the third point: we in the Church of God do have apostolic succession.

In the Continuing Church of God we trace our succession through what has been called the “Apostolic See of Ephesus,” but also sometimes called the “See of Smyrna.”

Some items to assist in your studies may include:

MARK Here is a link to a sermon covering all of Jesus’ words in the Gospel of Mark: What did Jesus teach in the Book of Mark? Here is a link to six sermons covering all the verses in the Gospel of Mark: Mark 1-2: Author, Prophecy, & Miracles, Mark 3-5: Healing, Demons, and Parables, Mark 6-9: Tradition, John’s beheading, Elijah, and Restoration, Mark 10-12: Marriage, Divorce, Needle Eye, Greatest Command, & Taxes, Mark 13: Temple, Four Horsemen, Troubles, Great Tribulation, and Gospel Proclamation, and Mark 14-16: Jesus’ Priorities & Betrayal, the Resurrection, Signs, and Reaching the World.
Beliefs of the Original Catholic Church. Did the original “catholic church” have doctrines held by the Beliefs of the Original Catholic Church: Could a remnant group have continuing apostolic succession? Did the original “catholic church” have doctrines held by the Continuing Church of God? Did Church of God leaders uses the term “catholic church” to ever describe the church they were part of? Here are links to related sermons: Original Catholic Church of God?, Original Catholic Doctrine: Creed, Liturgy, Baptism, Passover, What Type of Catholic was Polycarp of Smyrna?, Tradition, Holy Days, Salvation, Dress, & Celibacy, Early Heresies and Heretics, Doctrines: 3 Days, Abortion, Ecumenism, Meats, Tithes, Crosses, Destiny, and more, Saturday or Sunday?, The Godhead, Apostolic Laying on of Hands Succession, Church in the Wilderness Apostolic Succession List, Holy Mother Church and Heresies, and Lying Wonders and Original Beliefs. Here is a link to that book in the Spanish language: Creencias de la iglesia Católica original.
What Do Roman Catholic Scholars Actually Teach About Early Church History? Although most believe that the Roman Catholic Church history teaches an unbroken line of succession of bishops beginning with Peter, with stories about most of them, Roman Catholic scholars know the truth of this matter. Is telling the truth about the early church citing Catholic accepted sources anti-Catholic? This eye-opening article is a must-read for any who really wants to know what Roman Catholic history actually admits about the early church. There is also a YouTube sermon on the subject titled Church of God or Church of Rome: What Do Catholic Scholars Admit About Early Church History?
Nazarene Christianity: Were the Original Christians Nazarenes? Who were the Nazarene Christians? What did they believe? Should 21st century Christians be modern Nazarenes? Is there a group that exists now that traces its history through the Nazarenes and holds the same beliefs today? Here is a link to a related video sermon Nazarene Christians: Were the early Christians “Nazarenes”?
Location of the Early Church: Another Look at Ephesus, Smyrna, and Rome What actually happened to the primitive Church? And did the Bible tell about this in advance?
Laying on of Hands This is an elementary principle of Hebrews 6. Have you properly had hands laid upon you? Here is a link to a related sermon: Laying on of Hands and Succession.
Laying on of Hands Succession and List Does the Church of God have laying on of hands succession? Does the Continuing Church of God have a list of leaders from the time of the apostles? Here is a link to a related sermon: Apostolic Laying on of Hands Succession.
Apostolic Succession What really happened? Did structure and beliefs change? Are many of the widely-held current understandings of this even possible? Did you know that Catholic scholars really do not believe that several of the claimed “apostolic sees” of the Orthodox have apostolic succession–despite the fact that the current pontiff himself seems to wish to ignore this view? Is there actually a true church that has ties to any of the apostles that is not part of the Catholic or Orthodox churches? Read this article if you truly are interested in the truth on this matter! Here is a link to a sermon: Claims of Apostolic Succession. Here is a related articlein the Spanish language La sucesión apostólica. ¿Ocurrió en Roma, Alejandría, Constantinopla, Antioquía, Jerusalén o Asia Menor?
Early Church History: Who Were the Two Major Groups Professed Christ in the Second and Third Centuries? Did you know that many in the second and third centuries felt that there were two major, and separate, professing Christian groups in the second century, but that those in the majority churches tend to now blend the groups together and claim “saints” from both? “Saints” that condemn some of their current beliefs. Who are the two groups? A related sermon is also available Christianity: Two groups.
What Was the Original Apostles’ Creed? What is the Nicene Creed? Did the original apostles write a creed? When was the first creed written? Are the creeds commonly used by the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholics original?
Do You Practice Mithraism? Many practices and doctrines that mainstream so-called Christian groups have are the same or similar to those of the sun-god Mithras. December 25th was celebrated as his birthday. Do you follow Mithraism combined with the Bible or original Christianity? A sermon video from Vatican City is titled Church of Rome, Mithras, and Isis?
The Churches of Revelation 2 & 3 Do they matter? Most say they must, but act like they do not. This article contains some history about the Church of God (sometimes referred to as the continuation of Primitive Christianity) over the past 2000 years. It also discusses the concept of church eras. There is also a YouTube video: The Seven Church Eras of Revelation.
Which Is Faithful: The Roman Catholic Church or the Continuing Church of God? Do you know that both groups shared a lot of the earliest teachings? Do you know which church changed? Do you know which group is most faithful to the teachings of the apostolic church? Which group best represents true Christianity? This documented article answers those questions.
Where is the True Christian Church Today? This free online pdf booklet answers that question and includes 18 proofs, clues, and signs to identify the true vs. false Christian church. Plus 7 proofs, clues, and signs to help identify Laodicean churches. A related sermon is also available: Where is the True Christian Church? Here is a link to the booklet in the Spanish language: ¿Dónde está la verdadera Iglesia cristiana de hoy? Here is a link in the German language: WO IST DIE WAHRE CHRISTLICHE KIRCHE HEUTE?
Continuing History of the Church of God This pdf booklet is a historical overview of the true Church of God and some of its main opponents from Acts 2 to the 21st century. Related sermon links include Continuing History of the Church of God: c. 31 to c. 300 A.D. and Continuing History of the Church of God: 4th-16th Centuries and Continuing History of the Church of God: 17th-20th Centuries. The booklet is available in Spanish: Continuación de la Historia de la Iglesia de Dios, German: Kontinuierliche Geschichte der Kirche Gottes, French: L’Histoire Continue de l’Église de Dieu and Ekegusii Omogano Bw’ekanisa Ya Nyasae Egendererete.
The History of Early Christianity Are you aware that what most people believe is not what truly happened to the true Christian church? Do you know where the early church was based? Do you know what were the doctrines of the early church? Is your faith really based upon the truth or compromise?

Monks Valley, Cappadochia, Turkey (Pexels)

COGwriter

The Continuing Church of God (CCOG) is pleased to suggest the following video on our Bible News Prophecy YouTube channel:

14:48

Christian Monks?

What is a monk? Is this something Christians should strive to attain? What does the Jewish ‘Temple Institute’ teach? What about the Hebrew scriptures? What about the New Testament? What was the one thing that God said related to the creation in the 2nd chapter of the Book of Genesis that was not good? What did Jesus teach about one’s light shining and burying one’s talent? Are there both physical and spiritual monks? Are Christians to live as monks or serve others? When does the Church of Rome teach that monasticism started in the West? Are tonsures, such as those worn by priests of the Egyptian god Isis and the sun-god Mithra condemned in the Book of Leviticus? What did Jesus warn end-time Christians? How are Christians supposed to live? Do Philadelphian Christians have the type of love to support the fulfillment of Jesus’ commissions in Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:19-20? Where is Monks Valley, Cappadocia? What work should you support? Are ‘independent Christians’ like spiritual monks? What is your purpose? Steve Dupuie and Dr. Thiel address these issues.

Here is a link to our video: Christian Monks?

The Bible shows that Christians are to love their neighbors, which means that they would tend to have neighbors to love and assist. Including ones that do not profess Christ. A monastic lifestyle looks to be in conflict with that.

Sadly, many who claim Christianity do NOT hold to its original teachings. And many end time Christians also do not hold to the right teachings when it comes to loving others.

Do not be like them.

God has a plan for you! Do not sell yourself short by living as a physical or spiritual monk.

Some articles of possibly related interest may include:

Did the Early Christian Church Practice Monasticism? Does God expect or endorse living in a monastery or nunnery? Here is a link to a related video: Christian Monks?
Do You Practice Mithraism? Many practices and doctrines that mainstream so-called Christian groups have are the same or similar to those of the sun-god Mithras. December 25th was celebrated as his birthday. Do you follow Mithraism combined with the Bible or original Christianity? A sermon video from Vatican City is titled Church of Rome, Mithras, and Isis?
Were the Early Duties of Elders/Pastors Mainly Sacramental? What was there Dress? Were the duties of the clergy primarily pastoral or sacramental? Did the clergy dress with special liturgical vestments? Can “bishops” be disqualified as ministers of Christ based on their head coverings?
Independent/Unaffiliated: Independent Members of the COG: Herbert W. Armstrong Comments, Plus Questions and Answers What did Herbert W. Armstrong teach about being independent of the organized Church? Should independents who claim to accept Herbert W. Armstrong’s teachings support the end time Philadelphian work? Here is a link to a related sermon: Church of God Unity. Watch also Zephaniah’s ‘Gather Together’ Prophecy.
Was Celibacy Required for Early Bishops or Presbyters? Some religions suggest this, but what does the Bible teach? What was the practice of the early church?
Tradition and Scripture: From the Bible and Church Writings Are traditions on equal par with scripture? Many believe that is what Peter, John, and Paul taught. But did they?
Early Church History: Who Were the Two Major Groups Professed Christ in the Second and Third Centuries? Did you know that many in the second and third centuries felt that there were two major, and separate, professing Christian groups in the second century, but that those in the majority churches tend to now blend the groups together and claim “saints” from both? “Saints” that condemn some of their current beliefs. Who are the two groups?
Which Is Faithful: The Roman Catholic Church or the Continuing Church of God? Do you know that both groups shared a lot of the earliest teachings? Do you know which church changed? Do you know which group is most faithful to the teachings of the apostolic church? Which group best represents true Christianity? This documented article answers those questions.
Continuing History of the Church of God This pdf booklet is a historical overview of the true Church of God and some of its main opponents from Acts 2 to the 21st century. Related sermon links include Continuing History of the Church of God: c. 31 to c. 300 A.D. and Continuing History of the Church of God: 4th-16th Centuries. Marque aquí para ver el pdf folleto: Continuación de la Historia de la Iglesia de Dios.
The History of Early Christianity Are you aware that what most people believe is not what truly happened to the true Christian church? Do you know where the early church was based? Do you know what were the doctrines of the early church? Is your faith really based upon the truth or compromise?
Beliefs of the Original Catholic Church: Could a remnant group have continuing apostolic succession? Did the original “catholic church” have doctrines held by the Continuing Church of God? Did Church of God leaders uses the term “catholic church” to ever describe the church they were part of? Here are links to related sermons: Original Catholic Church of God?, Original Catholic Doctrine: Creed, Liturgy, Baptism, Passover, What Type of Catholic was Polycarp of Smyrna?, Tradition, Holy Days, Salvation, Dress, & Celibacy, Early Heresies and Heretics, Doctrines: 3 Days, Abortion, Ecumenism, Meats, Tithes, Crosses, Destiny, and more, Saturday or Sunday?, The Godhead, Apostolic Laying on of Hands Succession, Church in the Wilderness Apostolic Succession List, Holy Mother Church and Heresies, and Lying Wonders and Original Beliefs. Here is a link to that book in the Spanish language: Creencias de la iglesia Católica original.

COGwriter

The Continuing Church of God put together this sermon on its ContinuingCOG channel:

1:13:48

Asia Minor and Early Apostolic Succession

According to the words of Jesus and the Apostle Paul, was it possible for one city to be the continuous headquarters of the true Christian church for centuries? Where did Hippolytus of Rome and ‘Fox’s Book of Martyrs’ say that the original apostles went? What about Europe, the British Isles, India, China, Malaysia, Egypt, Africa, Iran, Antioch, and Asia Minor? Where were most of the books of the New Testament written to or from? Where did the last of the twelve apostles die? What were some of the early apostolic teachings that many changed? What about the change to Sunday? Were Gentiles keeping the Sabbath in the late second century? What about Passover on the 14th? Was Justin Martyr faithful or heretical? What about Melito and Polycrates? Was the Ephesian-dominated era replaced by that of Smyrna? What about binitarianism, millenarianism, and Sabellism? Who were the two possible groups with apostolic succession according to Tertullian? Were there bishops or elders in early Rome? Could apostolic succession have been passed from John (believed to be the the last of the original apostles to die) to Polycarp of Smyrna? Which early leaders had apostolic succession? Could the headquarters of the most faithful church have been moved from Jerusalem to Antioch to Asia Minor to Arsinoe to Antioch to Armenia to the Balkans to elsewhere in Europe to the British Isles and then to North America? Dr. Thiel address these matters and more.

Here is a link to the sermon: Asia Minor and Early Apostolic Succession.

If you are interested in church history and what happened with the original church, you may also wish to read the book, which is available free online at the following link: Beliefs of the Original Catholic Church.

The Continuing Church of God is NOT Greco-Roman Catholic, but neither is it Protestant. For some of the reasons why we are NOT Protestant, check out the free online book, Hope of Salvation: How the Continuing Church of God Differs from Protestantism.

Some items of possibly related interest may include:

Location of the Early Church: Another Look at Ephesus, Smyrna, and Rome What actually happened to the primitive Church? And did the Bible tell about this in advance? Here is a link to two related sermons: Early Church: Jerusalem, Rome, and Apostolic Teachings and Asia Minor and Early Apostolic Succession.
Beliefs of the Original Catholic Church. Did the original “catholic church” have doctrines held by the Continuing Church of God? Did Church of God leaders uses the term “catholic church” to ever describe the church they were part of? Here are links to related sermons: Original Catholic Church of God?, Original Catholic Doctrine: Creed, Liturgy, Baptism, Passover, What Type of Catholic was Polycarp of Smyrna?, Tradition, Holy Days, Salvation, Dress, & Celibacy, Early Heresies and Heretics, Doctrines: 3 Days, Abortion, Ecumenism, Meats, Tithes, Crosses, Destiny, and more, Saturday or Sunday?, The Godhead, Apostolic Laying on of Hands Succession, Church in the Wilderness Apostolic Succession List, Holy Mother Church and Heresies, and Lying Wonders and Original Beliefs.
Preparing for the ‘Short Work’ and The Famine of the Word What is the ‘short work’ of Romans 9:28? Who is preparing for it? Will Philadelphian Christians instruct many in the end times? Here is a link to a related video sermon titled: The Short Work. Here is a link to another: Preparing to Instruct Many.
Who Gave the World the Bible? The Canon: Why do we have the books we now do in the Bible? Is the Bible complete? Are there lost gospels? What about the Apocrypha? Is the Septuagint better than the Masoretic text? What about the Textus Receptus vs. Nestle Alland? Was the New Testament written in Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew? Which translations are based upon the best ancient text? Did the true Church of God have the canon from the beginning? Here are links to related sermons: Let’s Talk About the Bible, The Books of the Old Testament, The Septuagint and its Apocrypha, Masoretic Text of the Old Testament, and Lost Books of the Bible, and Let’s Talk About the New Testament, The New Testament Canon From the Beginning, English Versions of the Bible and How Did We Get Them?, What was the Original Language of the New Testament?, Original Order of the Books of the Bible, and Who Gave the World the Bible? Who Had the Chain of Custody?
Proof Jesus is the Messiah This free book has over 200 Hebrew prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus. Plus, His arrival was consistent with specific prophecies and even Jewish interpretations of prophecy. Here are links to seven related sermons: Proof Jesus is the Messiah, Prophecies of Jesus’ birth, timing, and death, Jesus’ prophesied divinity, 200+ OT prophecies Jesus filled; Plus prophecies He made, Why Don’t Jews Accept Jesus?, Daniel 9, Jews, and Jesus, and Facts and Atheists’ Delusions About Jesus. Plus the links to two sermonettes: Luke’s census: Any historical evidence? and Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah, but …
Hope of Salvation: How the Continuing Church of God Differs from Protestantism The CCOG is NOT Protestant. This free online book explains how the real Church of God differs from mainstream/traditional Protestants. Several sermons related to the free book are also available: Protestant, Baptist, and CCOG History; The First Protestant, God’s Command, Grace, & Character; The New Testament, Martin Luther, and the Canon; Eucharist, Passover, and Easter; Views of Jews, Lost Tribes, Warfare, & Baptism; Scripture vs. Tradition, Sabbath vs. Sunday; Church Services, Sunday, Heaven, and God’s Plan; Seventh Day Baptists/Adventists/Messianics: Protestant or COG?; Millennial Kingdom of God and God’s Plan of Salvation; Crosses, Trees, Tithes, and Unclean Meats; The Godhead and the Trinity; Fleeing or Rapture?; and Ecumenism, Rome, and CCOG Differences.
The MYSTERY of GOD’s PLAN Why Did God Create Anything? Why did God make you? This free online book helps answers some of the biggest questions that human have, including the biblical meaning of life. Here is a link to three related sermons: Mysteries of God’s Plan, Mysteries of Truth, Sin, Rest, Suffering, and God’s Plan, and The Mystery of YOU.
Universal OFFER of Salvation, Apokatastasis: Can God save the lost in an age to come? Hundreds of scriptures reveal God’s plan of salvation Will all get a fair chance at salvation? This free book is packed with scriptures showing that God does intend to offer salvation to all who ever lived–the elect in this age, and the rest in the age to come. Here is a link to a related sermon series: Universal Offer of Salvation 1: Apocatastasis, Universal Offer of Salvation 2: Jesus Desires All to be Saved, Mysteries of the Great White Throne Judgment (Universal Offer of Salvation part 3), Is God Fair, Will God Pardon the Ignorant?, Can God Save Your Relatives?, Babies, Limbo, Purgatory and God’s Plan, and ‘By the Mouth of All His Holy Prophets’.
Is God Calling You? This booklet discusses topics including calling, election, and selection. If God is calling you, how will you respond? Here is are links to related sermons: Christian Election: Is God Calling YOU? and Predestination and Your Selection. A short animation is also available: Is God Calling You?
Christians: Ambassadors for the Kingdom of God, Biblical instructions on living as a Christian This is a scripture-filled booklet for those wishing to live as a real Christian. A related sermon is also available: Christians are Ambassadors for the Kingdom of God.
The Ten Commandments: The Decalogue, Christianity, and the Beast This is a free pdf book explaining the what the Ten Commandments are, where they came from, how they develop love, how early professors of Christ viewed them, and how various ones, including the Beast of Revelation, will oppose them. A related sermon is titled: The Ten Commandments and the Beast of Revelation.
The Gospel of the Kingdom of God This free online pdf booklet has answers many questions people have about the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and explains why it is the solution to the issues the world is facing. Here are links to three related sermons: The World’s False Gospel, The Gospel of the Kingdom: From the New and Old Testaments, and The Kingdom of God is the Solution.
Where is the True Christian Church Today? This free online pdf booklet answers that question and includes 18 proofs, clues, and signs to identify the true vs. false Christian church. Plus 7 proofs, clues, and signs to help identify Laodicean churches. A related sermon is also available: Where is the True Christian Church? Here is a link to the booklet in the Spanish language: ¿Dónde está la verdadera Iglesia cristiana de hoy? Here is a link in the German language: WO IST DIE WAHRE CHRISTLICHE KIRCHE HEUTE? Here is a link in the French language: Où est la vraie Église Chrétienne aujourd’hui?
Continuing History of the Church of God This pdf booklet is a historical overview of the true Church of God and some of its main opponents from Acts 2 to the 21st century. Related sermon links include Continuing History of the Church of God: c. 31 to c. 300 A.D. and Continuing History of the Church of God: 4th-16th Centuries and Continuing History of the Church of God: 17th-20th Centuries. The booklet is available in Spanish: Continuación de la Historia de la Iglesia de Dios, German: Kontinuierliche Geschichte der Kirche Gottes, and Ekegusii Omogano Bw’ekanisa Ya Nyasae Egendererete.
CCOG.ORG Continuing Church of God The group striving to be most faithful amongst all real Christian groups to the word of God. There are links to literature is about 160 different languages there.

COGwriter

The Continuing Church of God put together this sermon on its ContinuingCOG channel:

1:17:39

Early Church: Jerusalem, Rome, and Apostolic Teachings

The original Christian church was founded in Jerusalem in the 2nd chapter of the Book of Acts. Could the faithful have been warned to flee to Pella before Emperor Vespasian had General Titus begin a siege of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.? Who were the Church of God leaders in Jerusalem? If they were faithful, what are some of their doctrines that most professing Christians do not hold to? What caused the split in Jerusalem c. 135? What did Emperor Hadrian decree about Aelia Capitolina? Did most who professed Christ accept compromise so they could stay, whereas a persecuted minority of faithful had to flee to another land? Were there Christians in Rome prior to the Apostles Peter and Paul? Were early Roman leaders like Linus, Cletus, and Clement faithful? What about Simon Magus and his influence? When did many who professed Christ turn away from the Sabbath and the biblical date of Passover? Did Irenaeus teach that it took someone with the status of Polycarp of Smyrna to denounce heretics such as Marcion and Valentinus? Did the Greco-Roman churches adopt any of the teachings of the apostate heretics? Are there any similarities about what happened in Jerusalem and what happened in the Worldwide Church of God after the death of Herbert W. Armstrong? Dr. Thiel addresses these matters.

Here is a link to the sermon: Early Church: Jerusalem, Rome, and Apostolic Teachings.

Here are a list of sermons directly tied to the Beliefs of the Original Catholic Church book:

1. Original Catholic Church of God?
2. Original Catholic Doctrine: Creed, Liturgy, Baptism, Passover
3. What Type of Catholic was Polycarp of Smyrna?
4. Tradition, Holy Days, Salvation, Dress, & Celibacy
5. Early Heresies and Heretics
6. Doctrines: 3 Days, Abortion, Ecumenism, Meats
7. Tithes, Crosses, Destiny, and more, Saturday or Sunday?
8. The Godhead
9. Apostolic Laying on of Hands Succession
10. Church in the Wilderness Apostolic Succession List
11. Holy Mother Church and Heresies
12. Lying Wonders and Original Beliefs

This book and the available sermons are intended to help us to instruct many and answer many who have a professing Christian background:

33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; (Daniel 11:33, NKJV)

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. (1 Peter 3:15-16, KJV)

So, yes, this information is important for you to know, presuming you wish to be one who understands and obeys God’s word.

Many with a Worldwide Church of God, or other Church of God, background  or even the Greco-Roman Catholic and Protestant churches may be surprised to learn who true Christian leaders said the original catholic church was.

If you are interested in church history and what happened with the original church, you may also wish to read the book, which is available free online at the following link: Beliefs of the Original Catholic Church.

The Continuing Church of God is NOT Greco-Roman Catholic, but neither is it Protestant. For some of the reasons why we are NOT Protestant, check out the free online book, Hope of Salvation: How the Continuing Church of God Differs from Protestantism.

Some items of possibly related interest may include:

Location of the Early Church: Another Look at Ephesus, Smyrna, and Rome What actually happened to the primitive Church? And did the Bible tell about this in advance? Here is a link to a related sermon:
Beliefs of the Original Catholic Church. Did the original “catholic church” have doctrines held by the Continuing Church of God? Did Church of God leaders uses the term “catholic church” to ever describe the church they were part of? Here are links to related sermons: Original Catholic Church of God?, Original Catholic Doctrine: Creed, Liturgy, Baptism, Passover, What Type of Catholic was Polycarp of Smyrna?, Tradition, Holy Days, Salvation, Dress, & Celibacy, Early Heresies and Heretics, Doctrines: 3 Days, Abortion, Ecumenism, Meats, Tithes, Crosses, Destiny, and more, Saturday or Sunday?, The Godhead, Apostolic Laying on of Hands Succession, Church in the Wilderness Apostolic Succession List, Holy Mother Church and Heresies, and Lying Wonders and Original Beliefs.
Preparing for the ‘Short Work’ and The Famine of the Word What is the ‘short work’ of Romans 9:28? Who is preparing for it? Will Philadelphian Christians instruct many in the end times? Here is a link to a related video sermon titled: The Short Work. Here is a link to another: Preparing to Instruct Many.
Who Gave the World the Bible? The Canon: Why do we have the books we now do in the Bible? Is the Bible complete? Are there lost gospels? What about the Apocrypha? Is the Septuagint better than the Masoretic text? What about the Textus Receptus vs. Nestle Alland? Was the New Testament written in Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew? Which translations are based upon the best ancient text? Did the true Church of God have the canon from the beginning? Here are links to related sermons: Let’s Talk About the Bible, The Books of the Old Testament, The Septuagint and its Apocrypha, Masoretic Text of the Old Testament, and Lost Books of the Bible, and Let’s Talk About the New Testament, The New Testament Canon From the Beginning, English Versions of the Bible and How Did We Get Them?, What was the Original Language of the New Testament?, Original Order of the Books of the Bible, and Who Gave the World the Bible? Who Had the Chain of Custody?
Proof Jesus is the Messiah This free book has over 200 Hebrew prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus. Plus, His arrival was consistent with specific prophecies and even Jewish interpretations of prophecy. Here are links to seven related sermons: Proof Jesus is the Messiah, Prophecies of Jesus’ birth, timing, and death, Jesus’ prophesied divinity, 200+ OT prophecies Jesus filled; Plus prophecies He made, Why Don’t Jews Accept Jesus?, Daniel 9, Jews, and Jesus, and Facts and Atheists’ Delusions About Jesus. Plus the links to two sermonettes: Luke’s census: Any historical evidence? and Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah, but …
Hope of Salvation: How the Continuing Church of God Differs from Protestantism The CCOG is NOT Protestant. This free online book explains how the real Church of God differs from mainstream/traditional Protestants. Several sermons related to the free book are also available: Protestant, Baptist, and CCOG History; The First Protestant, God’s Command, Grace, & Character; The New Testament, Martin Luther, and the Canon; Eucharist, Passover, and Easter; Views of Jews, Lost Tribes, Warfare, & Baptism; Scripture vs. Tradition, Sabbath vs. Sunday; Church Services, Sunday, Heaven, and God’s Plan; Seventh Day Baptists/Adventists/Messianics: Protestant or COG?; Millennial Kingdom of God and God’s Plan of Salvation; Crosses, Trees, Tithes, and Unclean Meats; The Godhead and the Trinity; Fleeing or Rapture?; and Ecumenism, Rome, and CCOG Differences.
The MYSTERY of GOD’s PLAN Why Did God Create Anything? Why did God make you? This free online book helps answers some of the biggest questions that human have, including the biblical meaning of life. Here is a link to three related sermons: Mysteries of God’s Plan, Mysteries of Truth, Sin, Rest, Suffering, and God’s Plan, and The Mystery of YOU.
Universal OFFER of Salvation, Apokatastasis: Can God save the lost in an age to come? Hundreds of scriptures reveal God’s plan of salvation Will all get a fair chance at salvation? This free book is packed with scriptures showing that God does intend to offer salvation to all who ever lived–the elect in this age, and the rest in the age to come. Here is a link to a related sermon series: Universal Offer of Salvation 1: Apocatastasis, Universal Offer of Salvation 2: Jesus Desires All to be Saved, Mysteries of the Great White Throne Judgment (Universal Offer of Salvation part 3), Is God Fair, Will God Pardon the Ignorant?, Can God Save Your Relatives?, Babies, Limbo, Purgatory and God’s Plan, and ‘By the Mouth of All His Holy Prophets’.
Is God Calling You? This booklet discusses topics including calling, election, and selection. If God is calling you, how will you respond? Here is are links to related sermons: Christian Election: Is God Calling YOU? and Predestination and Your Selection. A short animation is also available: Is God Calling You?
Christians: Ambassadors for the Kingdom of God, Biblical instructions on living as a Christian This is a scripture-filled booklet for those wishing to live as a real Christian. A related sermon is also available: Christians are Ambassadors for the Kingdom of God.
The Ten Commandments: The Decalogue, Christianity, and the Beast This is a free pdf book explaining the what the Ten Commandments are, where they came from, how they develop love, how early professors of Christ viewed them, and how various ones, including the Beast of Revelation, will oppose them. A related sermon is titled: The Ten Commandments and the Beast of Revelation.
The Gospel of the Kingdom of God This free online pdf booklet has answers many questions people have about the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and explains why it is the solution to the issues the world is facing. Here are links to three related sermons: The World’s False Gospel, The Gospel of the Kingdom: From the New and Old Testaments, and The Kingdom of God is the Solution.
Where is the True Christian Church Today? This free online pdf booklet answers that question and includes 18 proofs, clues, and signs to identify the true vs. false Christian church. Plus 7 proofs, clues, and signs to help identify Laodicean churches. A related sermon is also available: Where is the True Christian Church? Here is a link to the booklet in the Spanish language: ¿Dónde está la verdadera Iglesia cristiana de hoy? Here is a link in the German language: WO IST DIE WAHRE CHRISTLICHE KIRCHE HEUTE? Here is a link in the French language: Où est la vraie Église Chrétienne aujourd’hui?
Continuing History of the Church of God This pdf booklet is a historical overview of the true Church of God and some of its main opponents from Acts 2 to the 21st century. Related sermon links include Continuing History of the Church of God: c. 31 to c. 300 A.D. and Continuing History of the Church of God: 4th-16th Centuries and Continuing History of the Church of God: 17th-20th Centuries. The booklet is available in Spanish: Continuación de la Historia de la Iglesia de Dios, German: Kontinuierliche Geschichte der Kirche Gottes, and Ekegusii Omogano Bw’ekanisa Ya Nyasae Egendererete.
CCOG.ORG Continuing Church of God The group striving to be most faithful amongst all real Christian groups to the word of God. There are links to literature is about 160 different languages there.

Monks Valley, Cappadochia, Turkey (Pexels)

COGwriter

Should people who claim to believe the Bible be monks?

No.

But what is a monk?

Wikipedia has the following:

A monk (/mʌŋk/, from Greek: μοναχός, monachos, “single, solitary” via Latin monachus) is a man who is a member of a religious order and lives in a monastery. A monk usually lives his life in prayer and contemplation. The concept is ancient and can be seen in many religions and in philosophy.

The Greek word for “monk” may be applied to men or women. In English, however, “monk” is applied mainly to men, while nun is typically used for female monastics. (Monk. Wikipedia, accessed 05/10/24)

So, monks basically live alone. Those in monasteries often only take care of themselves and their focus is on themselves. In pagan religions, monks are often considered to be holy men.

Yet, let’s notice a Jewish perspective from the Temple Institute about this:

Iyar 2, 5784/May 10, 2024

“You shall be holy, for I, HaShem, your G-d, am holy.” (Leviticus 19:2) That is, to say the least, a very tall order! How, exactly, is one to be holy? …

Kadosh, the word in Hebrew translated as holy, in its literal sense, means to be separate, to be distinct, to be unique. When we makdish something, (from the word, kadosh), we are dedicating it, setting it aside, imbuing it with a special status and purpose. G-d is, by definition, holy, because He is unique, He is One. So how are we to express our uniqueness in a way that we can attain holiness? Are we to separate ourselves from others? Become recluses? Live as monks far from the madding crowd? Astonishingly, Torah prescribes the exact opposite. We attain our uniqueness not by removing ourselves from society or distancing ourselves from others, but by reaching out and touching others. And this is what parashat Kedoshim comes to teach us.

So, that Jewish organization is pointing out that living alone for yourself is not how you become holy as God intends.

Now let’s look at something that the Bible teaches:

31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (Genesis 1:31)

Yet, what is the ONLY THING THAT GOD MENTIONED RELATED TO THAT CREATION THAT WAS NOT GOOD?

Now, let us see something about being alone from the Book of Genesis:

18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” (Genesis 2:18)

Monasticism is a move away from what is good, towards that which is not good. God does not want people to hermits.

Well, some may argue that is from the Old Testament, what about the New Testament?

Well, on the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus taught:

14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. (Matthew 5:14-16)

People cannot see your good works if you are living as a hermit.

Everyone knows that Jesus taught:

19 You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 19:19).

But how can you properly do that if you are living as a monk?

Also notice what the Apostle Paul taught:

1 We then who are strong ought to bear with the scruples of the weak, and not to please ourselves. 2 Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, leading to edification (Romans 15:1-2).

In order to be help others we must support others and not just try to please ourselves. Monks do not strive to please others for their good, leading to edification.

Monks mainly attempt to please themselves, though they often will produce wine or beer to support themselves.

Perhaps it should be noted, that although the out-of-context writings of Paul are sometimes cited by those endorsing monasticism, Paul seemed to argue against it when he wrote:

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world (1 Corinthians 5:9-10).

While it is true that Paul once probably took a Nazarite vow (Acts 18:21), and apparently a few others in the New Testament may have as well (Acts 21:23-24), these vows were only temporal and were not intended to be permanent as both the Old (Numbers 6:1-21) and New Testament show (Acts 18:21;21:23-24), as in every New Testament passage discussing them, it discusses them being ended.

Yet notice that Paul is stating that Christians are not to go out of the world like monks try to do.

Let me add that many Christians, while not becoming physical monks, have become spiritual monks. They do not believe that they should be subject to hierarchical church governance and do not believe that they need to support any church organization. They think that they are better being off on their own. That is basically what monks think.

Jesus warned that most end time Christians would be Laodiceans. Laodicea is made up of two words which basically mean that people decide. Just like monks, Laodiceans do not support the true Christian work as they should. Jesus tells them:

14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,

‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’ — and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked — 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”‘” (Revelation 3:14-22)

Unlike Laodicea, Philadelphia means love of the brethren. Philadelphian Christians support the end time work to fulfill the commissions that Jesus gave in Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:19-20 about reaching and teaching the world. They do not live just for themselves, but also to love and serve others.

Laodiceans are often weary about doing good. They do not seem to fully support matters such as the following that the Apostle Paul wrote:

9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith. (Galatians 6:9-10)

Like monks, independent Laodiceans are not truly doing good “to those who are of the household of faith.”

Notice also something that the Apostle John taught:

20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also (1 John 4:20-21).

Living a truly hermetic, monastic lifestyle does not fit with this. It is a selfish thing that does not generally show love toward neighbors (though there are some monastic orders that do not neglect these scriptures, many seem to).

Notice the following from Jesus:

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’  (Matthew 25:14-30)

The monk or independent Christian is like the man who hid his talent–Jesus refers to him as a wicked and lazy servant—that servant never took enough time to prove all things and to serve where God would have wanted him to serve. . Jesus expects us to work with others and to bear fruit. Do not deceive yourself otherwise that you are better off alone.

As far as history goes, even The Catholic Encyclopedia recognizes that monasticism, as it now recognizes it, did not begin until the 3rd century among any who professed Christ:

The first home of Christian monasticism is the Egyptian desert. Hither during persecution men fled the world and the danger of apostasy, to serve God in solitude. St. Anthony (270-356) is counted the father of all monks. His fame attracted many others, so that under Diocletian and Constantine there were large colonies of monks in Egypt, the first laurai (Fortesque A. Transcribed by Marie Jutras. Eastern Monasticism. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume X. Copyright © 1911 by Robert Appleton Company. Online Edition Copyright © 2003 by K. Knight. Nihil Obstat, October 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York).

The introduction of monasticism into the West may be dated from about A.D. 340 when St. Athanasius visited Rome accompanied by the two Egyptian monks Ammon and Isidore, disciples of St. Anthony (Huddleston G. R. Transcribed by Marie Jutras. Western Monasticism. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume X. Copyright © 1911 by Robert Appleton Company. Online Edition Copyright © 2003 by K. Knight. Nihil Obstat, October 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York).

Thus since monasticism, as we now understand it, did not begin until the late 3rd century, nor did it become popular until the fourth century, it is fair to conclude from Roman Catholic sources that the early church did not have monks, sisters, or similar monastic orders.

Being a monk was not part of the original Christian faith.

There is a place in Cappadocia, Turkey called Monks Valley. My wife and I visited once when we were in Turkey. Basically, many monks would be in an individual cave  in various rocks. Monks Valley was so far from anything else that the monks were not really assisting or helping others.

That is not reaching out to or assisting others.

What about the shaved appearance of some practicing Greco-Roman Catholic monks cause concern? Is this a Christian practice or did it come from somewhere else?

(Wikipedia source)

Wikipedia’s “Tonsure” article states:

Tonsure is the traditional practice of Christian churches of cutting or shaving the hair from the scalp (while leaving some parts uncut) of clerics, monastics, and, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, all baptized members. Tonsure, usually qualified by the name of the religion concerned, is now sometimes used more generally for such cutting or shaving for monks, devotees, or mystics of other religions as a symbol of their renunciation of worldly fashion and esteem, e.g., by Buddhist novices and monks, and some Hindu streams…

The origin of the tonsure remains unclear, but it certainly was not widely known in antiquity. There were three forms of tonsure known in the 7th and 8th centuries…

It is true that for centuries, various monks have shaved the center of their heads to make themselves bald. But I would like to help make its origins clearer.

First, it seems to have existed for a long time, as something like it has been prohibited by sacred scripture for thousands of years:

1 “Speak to the priests…5 ‘They shall not make any bald place on their heads, nor shall they shave the edges of their beards nor make any cuttings in their flesh. (Leviticus 21:1,5)

15 “But the priests, the Levites…20 “They shall neither shave their heads, nor let their hair grow long, but they shall keep their hair well trimmed. (Ezekiel 44:15,20)

Despite what the Bible teaches, various ones who claim some version of ‘Christianity’ (those who prefer tradition over the Bible) persist in this type of practice today. Bald shavings were practices of some pagan priests who were involved in sun-god worship in ancient times. This may be why God prohibited it.

Irrespective of claims to the contrary, the type of shavings commonly seen were not an original practice of the apostles or those in the early church. Furthermore, even the late 4th/early 5th century Roman Catholic saint and doctor Jerome condemned some versions of it:

Tonsure A sacred rite instituted by the Church by which a baptized and confirmed Christian is received into the clerical order by the shearing of his hair and the investment with the surplice…St. Jerome (in Ezech., xliv) disapproves of clerics shaving their heads. Indeed, among the Greeks and Romans such a custom was a badge of slavery. On this very account, the shaving of the head was adopted by the monks. Towards the end of the fifth, or beginning of the sixth, century, the custom passed over to the secular clergy. As a sacred rite, the tonsure was originally joined to the first ordination received, as in the Greek Church it still is to the order of lector. In the Latin Church it began as a separate ceremony about the end of the seventh century, when parents offered their young sons to the service of God…In Britain, the Saxon opponents of the Celtic tonsure called it the tonsure of Simon Magus. (Fanning, William. “Tonsure.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 14. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1912. 10 Apr. 2013 <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14779a.htm>)

The tonsure originated prior to the time of the apostles. Notice the following references:

The tonsure of the priests and monks is an exact imitation of that of the priests of Isis; (Higgins G. Anacalypsis an Attempt to Draw Aside the Veil of the Saitic Isis: Or an Inquiry Into the Origin of Languages, Nations and Religions, Volume 2. Longman, 1836. Digitized March, 29, 2010, p. 78).

Isis…Her worship advanced over nearly the entire Roman world…The tonsure (shaving of hair from the head) of her priests prefigured that of Christian monks. (Dunstan WE. Ancient Rome. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2011, p. 465)

the infant Brahmin…in India…In the second or third year, after his birth, the ceremony of tonsure must be performed; this was an old practice of the priests of Mithra, who, in their tonsures, imitated the solar disk. (Maurice T. Indian antiquities: or, Dissertations, relative to the ancient geographic divisions, the pure system of primeval theology … of Hindostan: compared, throughout, with the religion, laws, government, and literature of Persia, Egypt, and Greece, the whole intended as introductory to the …, Volume 7. T. Maurice, 1806. Digitized August 24, 2007, pp. 339-340)

Mithraism had its monks and nuns, as Tertullian admits, with the tonsure in honour of the disc of the Sun. To be shorn of hair is, doubtless, a sign of asceticism ; but it is the form of the tonsure (Khwaja K. The Sources of Christianity. The Basheer Muslim Library, 1924. Original from Oxford University Digitized 21 Dec 2007, p. 100)

Those monks and others who practice the tonsure are following a pagan religious practice that the Bible opposes. This should not be for those that claim to follow Jesus of the Bible–and He did not have a tonsure either. While the Bible does tell of a shaving of the head related to a Nazarite vow (Numbers 6:18), which the Apostle Paul did once do (Acts 18:18), this was not a permanent situation for display like the practices of ancient pagan priests and as various Greco-Roman Catholic monks do. And the hair shaving came AFTER a period of separation and hair growth (Numbers 6:5)–which is another difference from the tonsure.

The tonsure is in conflict with Leviticus 21:5 and Ezekiel 44:20, and while some may suggest that those prohibitions were done away, Jesus and His apostles did not teach that Christians should attempt to look like pagan priests. And those that do so give those, such as Muslims, reasons to question and dismiss the whole idea of Christianity.

So, how are Christians supposed to live?

Here are a couple of summary scriptures from the Old Testament:

8 He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

What does the New Testament teach?

Jesus said:

17 If you love Me, keep My commandments. (John 14:15)

17 if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 … “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Matthew 19:17-19)

12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. (Matthew 7:12)

As mentioned before, Jesus also warned that Christians needed to not be lukewarm about supporting the work of the church.

If you are a Christian, didn’t you want someone who was not lukewarm to share the true gospel of the kingdom with you.

Luke recorded that Jesus said:

31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. (Luke 6:31)

So, no, we are to be physical or spiritual hermits.

Remember that the Temple Institute taught:

We attain our uniqueness not by removing ourselves from society or distancing ourselves from others, but by reaching out and touching others.

While being alone will make also make you unique, it will limit your development of giving love in this age as well as in the age to come.

Now, here is something from our free book The MYSTERY of GOD’s PLAN: Why Did God Create Anything? Why Did God Make You?:

What is your purpose?

YOU are not the same as anyone else. The Bible teaches that “all the members do not have the same function … individually … God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased” (Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 12:18).

So, you are different. Your destiny is unique and important. Your life has meaning.

What is the biblical meaning of your life?

Who are you?

YOU are one who can give love in a unique way.

And that is something you will be able to do eternally.

In the middle of the last century, the Church of God (Seventh Day) published:

The Christian lives not only for today; he anticipates a better tomorrow. (What the Church of God Believes. The Bible Advocate and Herald of the Coming Kingdom. October 3, 1949, p. 7)

But a Christian does not simply anticipate a better tomorrow. A true Christian builds character now through the tests, opportunities, and trials in life (cf. Romans 5:1-4) which will help the Christian be able to personally contribute to the “better tomorrow.”

Ultimately God has special plans for YOU personally.

God made you to give love in your own individual way (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:20-13:10).

But how?

Essentially, by now living by faith and obedience to God in this life.

By being obedient, making biblical choices, having faith, practicing love, and enduring to the end, Christians will not only build character but make eternity better for themselves and others. …

Notice, now, passages in the New Testament:

¹¹ But the one and the same Spirit is operating in all these things, dividing separately to each one as God Himself desires. … ²⁷ Now you are the body of Christ, and you are all individual members. (1 Corinthians 12:11, 27, AFV)

⁷ Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. ⁸ For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. (Galatians 6:7-8)

¹⁰ For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name … (Hebrews 6:10)

God has a plan for ALL! That includes YOU INDIVIDUALLY whether you are called in this age or not. And He considers ALL OF YOUR WORKS.

All that you have been through, all that you have suffered, all of which you accomplished, etc. is preparing YOU to make eternity better (unless you will ultimately refuse to support God’s Kingdom). Everything you have been through has been preparing you for the calling and work God has for you! YOU will be able to give in a unique way and help make eternity better!

The Bible mentions that just like the body has parts like hands and eyes and parts for smelling, hearing, and other things (1 Corinthians 12:12-26), we all have our unique part in the eternal plan God has. Yes, your role could be quite different from the other billions of humans—don’t think God does not have a real plan for YOU.

Furthermore, you are accountable for what you do (Romans 14:12). God will judge based on what you do (Ecclesiastes 12:14; Revelation 20:12) as well as what you fail to do (Matthew 25:24-30). The more you do what you should do, the more you will make eternity better for your own self and others. The more you do not do what you should not do, you will make eternity better for your own self and others. God is a righteous judge (2 Timothy 4:8).

The Bible teaches that we shall be rewarded according to our works (Matthew 16:27; Romans 2:6; Proverbs 24:12; Jeremiah 17:10; Revelation 22:12)! And we will be able to help more people because of that (cf. Luke 19:15-19). The Bible says that after death, our works follow us (cf. Revelation 14:13)—which basically means that what we learned and developed while physical will shape how we will be able to give and work throughout eternity.

We are not called to live as monks at this time.

And never to live as the pagan monks have.

What most of the world (including Wikipedia) believes represents original Christianity is a compromise with paganism and does not represent the practices of Jesus or His original apostles. The tonsure should be a sign to everyone that sees it that those who practice it are not being faithful to the Bible or the practices of the early apostles.

The idea of a permanent monastic lifestyle neither is scriptural, nor consistent with the teachings or practices of the first and second century Christians.

UPDATE 05/12/24: We just uploaded the following related video:

14:48

Christian Monks?

What is a monk? Is this something Christians should strive to attain? What does the Jewish ‘Temple Institute’ teach? What about the Hebrew scriptures? What about the New Testament? What was the one thing that God said related to the Creation in the 2nd chapter of the Book of Genesis that was not good? What did Jesus teach about one’s light shining and burying one’s talent? Are there both physical and spiritual monks? Are Christians to live as monks or serve others? When does the Church of Rome teach that monasticism started in the West? Are tonsures, such as those worn by priests of the Egyptian god Isis and the sun-god Mithra condemned in the Book of Leviticus? What did Jesus warn end-time Christians? How are Christians supposed to live? Do Philadelphian Christians have the type of love to support the fulfillment of Jesus’ commissions in Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:19-20? Where is Monks Valley, Cappadocia? What work should you support? Are ‘independent Christians’ like spiritual monks? What is your purpose? Steve Dupuie and Dr. Thiel address these issues.

Here is a link to our video: Christian Monks?

The Bible shows that Christians are to love their neighbors, which means that they would tend to have neighbors to love and assist. Including ones that do not profess Christ. A monastic lifestyle looks to be in conflict with that.

Sadly, many who claim Christianity do NOT hold to its original teachings. And many end time Christians also do not hold to the right teachings when it comes to loving others.

Do not be like them.

God has a plan for you! Do not sell yourself short by living as a physical or spiritual monk.

Some articles of possibly related interest may include:

Did the Early Christian Church Practice Monasticism? Does God expect or endorse living in a monastery or nunnery? Here is a link to a related video: Christian Monks?
Do You Practice Mithraism? Many practices and doctrines that mainstream so-called Christian groups have are the same or similar to those of the sun-god Mithras. December 25th was celebrated as his birthday. Do you follow Mithraism combined with the Bible or original Christianity? A sermon video from Vatican City is titled Church of Rome, Mithras, and Isis?
Were the Early Duties of Elders/Pastors Mainly Sacramental? What was there Dress? Were the duties of the clergy primarily pastoral or sacramental? Did the clergy dress with special liturgical vestments? Can “bishops” be disqualified as ministers of Christ based on their head coverings?
Independent/Unaffiliated: Independent Members of the COG: Herbert W. Armstrong Comments, Plus Questions and Answers What did Herbert W. Armstrong teach about being independent of the organized Church? Should independents who claim to accept Herbert W. Armstrong’s teachings support the end time Philadelphian work? Here is a link to a related sermon: Church of God Unity. Watch also Zephaniah’s ‘Gather Together’ Prophecy.
Was Celibacy Required for Early Bishops or Presbyters? Some religions suggest this, but what does the Bible teach? What was the practice of the early church?
Tradition and Scripture: From the Bible and Church Writings Are traditions on equal par with scripture? Many believe that is what Peter, John, and Paul taught. But did they?
Early Church History: Who Were the Two Major Groups Professed Christ in the Second and Third Centuries? Did you know that many in the second and third centuries felt that there were two major, and separate, professing Christian groups in the second century, but that those in the majority churches tend to now blend the groups together and claim “saints” from both? “Saints” that condemn some of their current beliefs. Who are the two groups?
Which Is Faithful: The Roman Catholic Church or the Continuing Church of God? Do you know that both groups shared a lot of the earliest teachings? Do you know which church changed? Do you know which group is most faithful to the teachings of the apostolic church? Which group best represents true Christianity? This documented article answers those questions.
Continuing History of the Church of God This pdf booklet is a historical overview of the true Church of God and some of its main opponents from Acts 2 to the 21st century. Related sermon links include Continuing History of the Church of God: c. 31 to c. 300 A.D. and Continuing History of the Church of God: 4th-16th Centuries. Marque aquí para ver el pdf folleto: Continuación de la Historia de la Iglesia de Dios.
The History of Early Christianity Are you aware that what most people believe is not what truly happened to the true Christian church? Do you know where the early church was based? Do you know what were the doctrines of the early church? Is your faith really based upon the truth or compromise?
Beliefs of the Original Catholic Church: Could a remnant group have continuing apostolic succession? Did the original “catholic church” have doctrines held by the Continuing Church of God? Did Church of God leaders uses the term “catholic church” to ever describe the church they were part of? Here are links to related sermons: Original Catholic Church of God?, Original Catholic Doctrine: Creed, Liturgy, Baptism, Passover, What Type of Catholic was Polycarp of Smyrna?, Tradition, Holy Days, Salvation, Dress, & Celibacy, Early Heresies and Heretics, Doctrines: 3 Days, Abortion, Ecumenism, Meats, Tithes, Crosses, Destiny, and more, Saturday or Sunday?, The Godhead, Apostolic Laying on of Hands Succession, Church in the Wilderness Apostolic Succession List, Holy Mother Church and Heresies, and Lying Wonders and Original Beliefs. Here is a link to that book in the Spanish language: Creencias de la iglesia Católica original.

COGwriter

The May 2023 edition of the Sabbath Sentinel put out by the Bible Sabbath Association, which is not a Church of God group (though it has members that are in the COGs, as well as members who are not), has the following:

Peter Waldo, Waldensians, and the Sabbath

By Dr. Bob Thiel

Some have asserted that those who have called themselves some version of the term Waldensian (sometimes also referred to as Vaudois) always kept Sunday.

Did any of the Waldensians keep the seventh-day Sabbath?

Did all of them?

What about Peter Waldo?

Seventh-day Adventist scholar Gerard Damsteegt has stated:

Although there is no record that Waldo and his followers observed the seventh-day Sabbath, we know that several movements related to the Waldenses were reported to observe this custom. [i]

Actually, the above scholar actually provided evidence that Peter Waldo and his followers kept the Sabbath in the same article, more of which will be cited later.

Now, let it be made clear that scholars who have looked into the Waldensians have concluded that at least some of them kept the seventh-day Sabbath—despite the fact that they do not today.

Here is an old report from old English (where the letter ‘f ’ was often used instead of the letter ‘s,’ so it is changed below) from a Baptist historian in the 18th century:

Some of the inhabitants of the Pyrenees, and of the adjacent states, and not those of the vallies of Piedmont, were the true original Waldenses, … Some of these christians were called Sabbati, Sabbatati, and Insabbatati, and more frequently Inzabbatati. … one says, they were so named from the hebrew word sabbath, because they kept the saturday for the Lord’s day. Another says, they were so called because they rejected all the festivals, or sabbaths, in the low latin sense of the word, which the catholick church religiously observed.[ii]

So, there were multiple types of Waldensians, and many kept the seventh-day Sabbath.

Notice the following:

One of the primary sources of evidence of Waldensian Sabbathkeeping during the first half of the thirteenth century comes from a collection of five books written against the Cathars and Waldensians about 1241-1244 by Dominican inquisitor Father Moneta of Cremona in northern Italy.

Moneta passionately defended himself against criticism from Waldensians and Cathars that Catholics were transgressors of the Sabbath commandment. In the chapter De Sabbato, et De Die Dominico he discussed the significance of the seventh-day Sabbath of Exodus 20:8, “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy,” and contrasted it with the value of the Lord’s day, his term for the first day of the week. …

Sabbathkeeping among Waldensians was most widespread in Bohemia and Moravia, places to which they fled during papal persecution.

A fifteenth-century manuscript, published by church historian Johann Döllinger in History of the Sects {Beiträge zur Sektengeschichte des Mittelalters (Munich: Beck, 1890), Vol. II, p. 662} reports that Waldensians in Bohemia “do not celebrate the feasts of the blessed virgin Mary and the Apostles, except the Lord’s day. Not a few celebrate the Sabbath with the Jews.” [iii]

Here is a report from the Lutheran historian Johann Mosheim concerning a group in the 12^th century with Waldensian connections and two of their tenets:

the denomination of the Pasaginians … The first was a notion, that the observance of the law of Moses, in everything except the offering of sacrifices, was obligatory upon Christians; in consequence of which they circumcised their followers, abstained from those meats, the use of which was prohibited under the Mosaic economy, and celebrated the Jewish sabbath. The second tenet that distinguished this sect was advanced in opposition to the doctrine of three persons in the divine nature. [iv]

So, they kept the Sabbath, abstained from unclean meats, and were opposed to the trinitarian view. While not all the views that Mosheim had about the Pasaginians were Church of God views, apparently some called by that name were Church of God Christians. It should also be noted that Mosheim believed that there were two types of Waldnesians. One considered that the Church of Rome was a real Christian church, whereas the other considered the Church of Rome to be the harlot of Revelation 17.[v] Others have written that one type of Waldensian was fairly close to the Greco-Romans, whereas the other type was much more independent of them.[vi]

In the 17^th century, Peter Allix reported about beliefs of the early Waldensians from a critic and then made his own comments:

That the Law of Moses is to be kept according to the letter, and that the keeping of the Sabbath, Circumcision, and other legal observances, ought to take place. They hold also, that Christ the Son of God is not equal with the Father, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, these three Persons, are not one God and one substance; and, as a surplus to these their errors, -they judge and condemn all the doctors of the Church, and universally the whole Roman Church. Now, since they endeavour to defend this their error by testimonies drawn from the New Testament and Prophets, I shall, with assistance of the grace of Christ, stop their mouths, as David did Goliah’s, with their own sword. [vii]

But here, first of all, we are to take notice, that the Waldenses and Albigenses had both of them the same belief… the difference between the Waldenses and the Church of Rome was not so small, that they could be looked upon only as schismatics, as the Bishop of Meaux has been pleased to imagine … the Waldenses, or disciples of Waldo, having been particularly famous for their refusing to swear, … Peter Waldo’s translating of the Bible, which must have been done before the year 1180, shews, that in France there was already a language different from the Latin tongue, [viii]

The above suggests that they held several Church of God doctrines including: binitarianism, non-swearing of oaths, and Sabbath-keeping.

The Petrobrusians (considered related to the Waldenses) kept the Sabbath and were condemned for it by the Roman Catholic saint Bernard in the 12th century.[ix] Notice the following from a Sunday-keeping writer (where I have typed it as originally written–knowing that now, the ‘f ’characters below would have been an ‘s’ in modern writing):

the feventh day Sabbath … In S. Bernard’s dayes it was condemned in the Petrobufiani. [x]

So, yes, some of the immediate predecessors of Peter Waldo and the Waldensians kept the seventh-day Sabbath and were condemned for it. Peter Waldo likely was in contact with some considered Petrobrusians.

The Patarenes (considered related to the Waldenses) kept the Sabbath and were condemned for it by Cardinal Damian around the same time. [xi]

Now what about Peter Waldo himself? Here is more from SDA scholar Gerard Damsteegt:

With few exceptions, Waldensians today deny that the ancient Waldenses kept the seventh-day Sabbath. However, historical evidence indicates that many did observe Sabbath during the Middle Ages. During the early part of the seventeenth century, the Swiss histo-rian Melchior Goldastus (1576–1635) commented on Emperor Frederic II’s Constitution of 1220 against heretics. He reasoned that the label insabbatati was used to describe heretics during the thirteenth century “because they judaize on the Sabbath,” that is, they kept the Sabbath like the Jews. He mentioned that the “Valdenses” were often called “Insabbatati,”indicating that during that time there were Waldenses who kept the seventh-day Sabbath (Saturday) as a day of rest. …

Primary sources show that, in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, there were two groups of Waldenses–one group that observed Sunday as the Lord’s day, the other that kept the seventh-day Sabbath of the Bible. Our research reveals that the title insabbatati could apply to (1) Waldenses who rejected Catholic festivals and holy days, or sabbaths, and observed only Sunday as the Lord’s day and (2) Waldenses who, in addition, rejected Sunday as a Catholic institution and kept the seventh-day Sabbath of the Bible. The title sabbatati, as applied to heretics, was used to characterize Waldenses who stood out because of their observance of the seventh-day Sabbath. (Damsteegt PG. The ancient Waldenses: Did the Reformation predate Luther? Ministry, October 2017, pp. 23,24)

The Waldensian historian, Emilio Comba, admits that northern Italy was a stronghold of various dissident groups associated with the Waldenses, some of which kept the Sabbath and often influenced and merged with the various groups of the Poor of Lyon and Poor Lombards. Sabbath keeping among the Waldenses was most widespread in Bohemia and Moravia. An inquisitor’s manuscript from the fifteenth century reports that Waldenses in Bohemia “do not celebrate the feasts of the blessed virgin Mary and the Apostles, except the Lord’s day. Not a few celebrate the Sabbath with the Jews.” … Most historians identify Tourlupins with the Picardian branch of Waldenses. A company of them was arrested in 1420. Well-preserved manuscripts mention that they “upheld that the Saturday must be celebrated instead of Sunday.”

From the end of the twelfth century, opponents of the Waldenses called them insabbatati, insabbatatis, xabatati, xabatenses, sabbatati, sabatatos, inzabattati, insabbatatorum, and insabbatatos. These words can be traced back to the basic forms of insabbatati and sabbatati, because of Latin declensions. … The first time the word insabbatati appeared in the existing Latin literature is in an edict issued in 1192 against heretics by Alfonso II, King of Aragon, (1152–1196), Count of Barcelona, and Count of Provence. This edict warned against the Valdenses (Waldenses) and identified them as Insabbatatos and Pauperes de Lugduno (Poor of Lyon). The edict, however, did not explain why Waldenses were called Insabbatatos. The next use of this term was in an 1197 edict issued by the son of Alfonso II, Peter II, King of Aragon, (1174–1213) and Count of Provence. This document called them Sabatati and Pauperes de Lugduno. …

From the various accounts of Waldenses rejecting holy days, festivals or sabbaths, it is not surprising that, as late as the time of archbishop James Usher (1581–1656), there were many who believed that insabbatati referred to those Waldenses who worshiped by judaizing on the Sabbath. Concerning the word insabbatati, Jesuit Inquisitor Pegne also admitted that “many used to think it came from Sabbath, and that they [Waldenses] observed the Sabbath according to the custom of the Jews.” …

Since the Middle Ages, historians have characterized the Waldenses by the uncomplimentary names insabbatati and sabbatati to indicate their unique attire by the type of shoes they wore, or their unique belief in rejecting Catholic holy days or festivals and practices. The research underlying this article has tried to decode the confusion surrounding these names. This has led to the following insights for historiography, previously unnoticed. From the analysis of the shoe theory, the research brought out that the wearing of perforated shoes was not introduced by or was not the custom of the Waldenses or the Poor of Lyon, but it was a custom introduced by the Poor Catholics and the Reconciled Poor. …

The term sabbatati also could have been used to describe some groups of Waldenses who followed the Jewish practice of resting on the Sabbath. This fits the meaning of both Insabbatati as depicting the rejection of Catholic holy days, Sabbaths, and teachings, and sabbatati describing the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath. Primary sources show that one inquisitor in the thirteenth century wrote a book against the Waldenses and Cathars in which he refuted their criticism that Roman Catholics observed Sunday instead of the seventh-day Sabbath. This is evidence that there were Waldenses and Cathars who kept the seventh-day Sabbath during the high Middle Ages. Additional evidence shows that several groups closely associated and considered part of the Waldensian movement did indeed keep the seventh-day Sabbath as early as the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. [xii]

While there may be debate regarding the precise year of Alphonso’s decree, notice the following:

Again to the South-West, about AD. 1190, we read of a public discussion between certain Valdenses and Catholics near Narbonne:and in 1194 of a Decree of Alphonzo II of Arragon against them …

[596] “Waldenses sive Insabbatatos, qui alio nomine se vocant Pauperes de Lugduno,…ab omni regno nostro, tanquam inimicos crucis Christi,…et regni publicos hostes, exire ac fugere praecipinius.” [xiii]

I have translated the above as follows:

“The Waldenses, or the Insabbatatos, who call themselves the Poor of Lyons by another name, … from all our kingdom, as enemies of the cross of Christ, … and the public enemies of the kingdom, to go forth and flee from the headlands.”

The fact that the followers of Peter Waldo may not have been publicly accused of keeping the seventh-day Sabbath until the late 12^th century could possibly suggest that some who were earlier categorized as Waldensians did not then do so.

Yet, since Peter Waldo lived until 1205 in the 13^th century, the fact that his people were called insabbatati by the end of the 12^th century looks to be evidence that Peter Waldo and his followers were keeping the seventh-day Sabbath by then.

As far as Peter Waldo goes, it is my view that he initially (c. 1160-1179) may or may not have been a Sabbath-keeper, but was one, probably no later than 1180, after exposure to some others in his region who held Church of God-type doctrines.

Dr. Thiel has been interested in the Church of God for over 50 years. He was baptized by a Worldwide Church of God minister in 1977. He writes extensively. He is currently the Overseeing Pastor of the Continuing Church of God (www.ccog.org), one of the top four groups (in terms of congregants) whose leaders were once part of the old Worldwide Church of God. Hundreds of thousands know him as “COGwriter” as he writes over 1000 news posts and articles per year at www.cogwriter.com.

End Note References

[i] Damsteegt PG. DECODING ANCIENT WALDENSIAN NAMES: NEW DISCOVERIES. Andrews University Seminary Studies, Vol. 54, 2016, No. 2, Autumn 2016, p. 254)

[ii] Robinson R. Ecclesiastical Researches. Francis Hodson, publisher. 1792, pp. 299-304

[iii] Damsteegt PG. Were Waldensians Sabbath-keepers? Adventist World, September 6, 2017

[iv] Mosheim JL, Coote C, Gleig G. An Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern: In which the Rise, Progress, and Variations of Church Power, are Considered in Their Connexion with the State of Learning and Philosophy, and the Political History of Europe During that Period, Volume 1. Translated by Archibald Maclaine. Plaskitt & Cugle, 1840, p. 333

[v] Moshiem, p. 333

[vi] Froom LE. The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume 1. Review and Herald, 1950, p. 831

[vii] Allix P. Some Remarks upon the Eccelisastical History of the Ancient churches of Piedmont. Originally published 1690, Oxford reprint 1831, p. 169

[viii] Ibid, pp. 173, 183, 184

[ix] Andrews J. History of the Sabbath and First Day of the Week. Reprint by Teach Services, 1998, p. 421

[x] White F, Bifhop of Ely. A Treatise on the Sabbath Day …. Richard Badger, 1635, p. 8

[xi] Wilkinson B. Reprint by Teach Services, 1994, pp. 234-235

[xii] Damsteegt PG. DECODING ANCIENT WALDENSIAN NAMES: NEW DISCOVERIES. Andrews University Seminary Studies, Vol. 54, 2016, No. 2, 237–258

[xiii] Elliot EB, ed. The Horae Apocalypticae. Originally finished in 1860. Cross The Border Publishing, reprint 2018, Chapter VII and reference 596

Now, someone later asked me if I let Seventh-day Adventist scholar Gerard Damsteegt know this, and I checked my emails, and yes, I had.

As it turns out, the predecessors of the Waldensians, often called Paulicians, considered themselves to be catholic Christians and those associated with the Church of Rome apostates:

They called themselves the Apostolic Catholic church, but …  nicknamed Paulicians by their enemies … (Paulicians. The Encyclopaedia Britannica: Mun to Pay. 1911, p. 961; Blackwell D. A HANDBOOK OF CHURCH HISTORY: A Thesis Presented to the Faculty of the Ambassador College Graduate School of Theology. April 1973, p.29)

In Kurtz’s Church History, article Nostic and Manichean Heretics:

The Catholics, this sect called Romans, gave them the name Paulicians.

See how they received that name. The Catholics, whom this sect called “Romans.” … Paulicians. They did not give themselves that name.

But they designated themselves Christians.

Yes, the Bible had said they had not denied His name. And when you read about the Paulicians, that is one thing that is mentioned quite often. They were named Paulicians by the Catholics. They considered themselves Christians and they would not call the Romans “Christians.” They called them Romans. (Blackwell, p. 48)

The Paulicians They called themselves only Χριστιανοí {Christians} (Kurtz JH, Jr., Macpherson J. Church History: Volume 1. 1891, p. 423)

The Paulicians did not call themselves Paulicians or Tonrakians, but the Universal and Apostolic Church.  To them the orthodox churches, … had   apostatized from the faith, lost their orders, and forfeited their sacraments.  As to their Mariolatry and adoration of saints and pictures and  crosses, it was all nothing but idolatry. (Arpee L. Armenian Paulicianism and the Key of Truth. The American Journal of Theology, Vol. 10, No. 2, Apr., 1906: 267-285)

The Paulicians claimed to be THE ‘holy universal and apostolic church’ founded by Jesus Christ and his apostles. Of the false churches, they would say: “We do not belong to these, for they have long ago broken connection with the church.” … 6^th century.  (Lesson 50 – What Became of the Church Jesus Built? 58 Lesson: Ambassador College Bible Correspondence Course, 1968, p. 13).

So, these Paulicians considered that they had apostolic succession, were the true catholic church, and that the Roman churches were not. They appear to have continued with beliefs of the original church whose remnants in Antioch passed them on to Armenia no later than in the 5^th century (Conybeare, p. cix).

A 19^th century Sabbatarian publication referred to the persecuted Paulicians, Albigenses, and Waldeneses as “martyrs of Jesus” (Rock. Prophecy in its Bearing on the Present Crisis. Hope of Israel. February 27, 1872, p. 132).

The Waldenses, some of whom held to COG doctrine during the time of Thyatira, claimed to have originally descended from the Greek church (Martin JH. Historical Sketch of Bethlehem in Pennsylvania With Some Account of the Moravian Church. Philadelphia, 1873, pp. 8, 52,78; Benham D. Notes on the Origin and Episcopate of the Bohemian Brethren. Dalton & Lucy, 1867, pp. 7,94,126; Staunton W. An Ecclesiastical Dictionary. General Protestant Episcopal Sunday School Union and Church Book Society, 1861, p. 658), which would have been Asia Minor or possibly Antioch.

The Waldenses recognized that they were the true successors of the apostolic church. They kept the SABBATH, also the yearly PASSOVER. (Lesson 51 – The Light In The Dark Ages. Ambassador College Bible Correspondence Course, 1968)

“Their enemies confirm their great antiquity. Reinerius Saccho, an inquisitor, and one of their most implacable enemies, who lived only eighty years after Waldo, admits that the Waldenses flourished five hundred years before that preacher (600 A.D.), Gretzer, the Jesuit, who also wrote against the Waldenses, and had examined the subject fully, not only admits their great antiquity, but declares his firm belief that the Toulousians and Albigenses . . . were no other than Waldenses.’ In fact, their doctrine, discipline, government, manners, and even the errors with which they have been charged [by the {Greco-Roman} Catholics], show that the Albigenses and Waldenses were distinct branches of the same sect, or that the former sprang from the latter.” — Dr. Rankin’s History of France, vol. III, p. 198, 202; Jones’ Church History, p. 233. (as cited in Dugger AN, Dodd CO. A History of True Religion, 3rd ed. Jerusalem, 1972, Church of God, 7th Day. 1990 reprint, Chapter 10, p. 108)

Furthermore, those ancient peoples objected to being called Waldenses:

“From E. Comba’s work, Guild Hall Library, London, we get the following. ‘The Waldenses objected to being called after Peter Waldo. They teach that We are a little Christian flock, falsely called Waldenses’” (Dugger, p. 142).

There was reportedly a written list of successors from the original apostles all the way into the 16^th century that the Waldensians once had (Proceedings of the New York State Historical Association: … Annual Meeting with Constitution and By-laws and List of Members, Volume 17; Volume 19. The Association, 1919, pp. 190-191; The American Universal Cyclopaedia: A Complete Library of Knowledge. A Reprint of the Last Edinburgh and London Ed. of Chambers’s Encyclopaedia, Volume 15. S.W. Green’s Son, 1882, p. 201; Martin, pp. 8, 52, 78).

That said, we earlier put together the following sermonette related to the Waldensians having laying on of hands succession from the time of the apostles:

Waldensian Apostolic Succession

Jesus said that the true church would continue to the end of the age. Did any in the groups called Waldensians (or Waldenses), Vaudois, or Moravians have apostolic succession? Were there such claims over 500 years ago?  Did any group claim to have an actual apostolic succession list of bishops? Was such a list at least partially accepted by the British Parliament in the 18th century or the Greek Orthodox Church in the 15th century or others centuries ago? Could the Waldenses have came from the true church in Antioch or Asia Minor in the 3rd or 4th centuries? Do modern American Waldensians claim to have such a list? What about the ones associated with that church or its Archivo Della Tavola Valdese in Italy? Did Dr. Thiel put together such a list and share it with them? Can such a list be seen today? Dr. Thiel goes over that and some of his research into this topic, while also asking for others to help fill in the gaps or assist in improving the list in this video. Dr. Thiel also discusses its symbol with a candle on a lampstand pointing to the fourth star and Jesus words in Revelation.

Here is a link to our video: Waldensian Apostolic Succession.

The true Christian Church of God, and all of its true ministers, have laying on of hands succession from the original apostles to present.

Some items of possibly related interest may include the following:

Another Look at the Didache, Ignatius, and the Sabbath Did Ignatius write against the Sabbath and for Sunday? What about the Didache? What does the actual Greek reveal?
The Sabbath in the Early Church and Abroad Was the seventh-day (Saturday) Sabbath observed by the apostolic and post-apostolic Church? Here is a related sermon video The Christian Sabbath and How and Why to Keep It.
The Christian Sabbath. This is a series of articles from the Catholic Mirror essentially proving that the biblical Sabbath was Saturday, that the Lord’s day in Revelation 1 is not a reference to Sunday, that the Church of Rome implemented Sunday, and that nearly all Protestants followed Rome.
Early Sabbath Keeping in North America When did Europeans first keep the Sabbath in North America? Did the pilgrims who arrived on the Mayflower keep Saturday or Sunday?
How to Observe the Sabbath How should you keep the Sabbath? This is an old article by Raymond Cole, with updated information for the 21st century.
The Dramatic Story of Chinese Sabbathkeepers This reformatted Good News article from 1955 discusses Sabbath-keeping in China in the 1800s.
Is God Unreasonable? Some have suggested that if God requires Sabbath-keeping He is unreasonable. Is that true? Here is a link to a related article in Mandarin Chinese 一个不合理的神？
Should You Observe God’s Holy Days or Demonic Holidays? This is a free pdf booklet explaining what the Bible and history shows about God’s Holy Days and popular holidays. A related sermon is Which Spring Days should Christians observe?
Is Revelation 1:10 talking about Sunday or the Day of the Lord? Most Protestant scholars say Sunday is the Lord’s Day, but is that what the Bible teaches?
Sunday and Christianity Was Sunday observed by the apostolic and true post-apostolic Christians? Who clearly endorsed Sunday? What relevance is the first or the “eighth” day? A related sermon is also available: Sunday: First and Eighth Day?
Where is the True Christian Church Today? This free online pdf booklet answers that question and includes 18 proofs, clues, and signs to identify the true vs. false Christian church. Plus 7 proofs, clues, and signs to help identify Laodicean churches. A related sermon is also available: Where is the True Christian Church? Here is a link to the booklet in the Spanish language: ¿Dónde está la verdadera Iglesia cristiana de hoy? Here is a link in the German language: WO IST DIE WAHRE CHRISTLICHE KIRCHE HEUTE? Here is a link in the French language: Où est la vraie Église Chrétienne aujourd’hui?
Continuing History of the Church of God This pdf booklet is a historical overview of the true Church of God and some of its main opponents from Acts 2 to the 21st century. Related sermon links include Continuing History of the Church of God: c. 31 to c. 300 A.D. and Continuing History of the Church of God: 4th-16th Centuries. The booklet is available in Spanish: Continuación de la Historia de la Iglesia de Dios, German: Kontinuierliche Geschichte der Kirche Gottes, and Ekegusii Omogano Bw’ekanisa Ya Nyasae Egendererete.
Tradition and Scripture: From the Bible and Church Writings Are traditions on equal par with scripture? Many believe that is what Peter, John, and Paul taught. But did they?
Polycarp of Smyrna: The Heretic Fighter Polycarp was the successor of the Apostle John and a major leader in Asia Minor. Do you know much about what he taught? A YouTube video or related interesy may be: Polycarp of Smyrna: Why Christians should know more about him.
Theophilus of Antioch This is one of the second century leaders of some Christians in Antioch and is considered a Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch.
The Ten Commandments: The Decalogue, Christianity, and the Beast This is a free draft/unedited pdf book explaining the what the Ten Commandments are, where they came from, how early professors of Christ viewed them, and how various ones, including the Beast of Revelation, will oppose them. A related sermon is titled: The Ten Commandments and the Beast of Revelation.
Beliefs of the Original Catholic Church: Could a remnant group have continuing apostolic succession? Did the original “catholic church” have doctrines held by the Continuing Church of God? Did Church of God leaders uses the term “catholic church” to ever describe the church they were part of? Here are links to related sermons: Original Catholic Church of God?, Original Catholic Doctrine: Creed, Liturgy, Baptism, Passover, What Type of Catholic was Polycarp of Smyrna?, Tradition, Holy Days, Salvation, Dress, & Celibacy, Early Heresies and Heretics, Doctrines: 3 Days, Abortion, Ecumenism, Meats, Tithes, Crosses, Destiny, and more, Saturday or Sunday?, The Godhead, Apostolic Laying on of Hands Succession, Church in the Wilderness Apostolic Succession List, Holy Mother Church and Heresies, and Lying Wonders and Original Beliefs. Here is a link to that book in the Spanish language: Creencias de la iglesia Católica original.